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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What do you hate about your EPIC?

Tv, web, docos etc the c300 is fine. Not one non camera guy would even notice the different image quality. I'm all about image quality but I feel that only about 1% of the population notice something as beautiful as Red.
 
Can I say everything? The only enjoyable thing I get from using an epic is when I put it back it it's case and return it to the rental house.

One SDI output? lack of standard lens height or iris rod support? Stupid non functional ribs on the body to make mounting MDRs difficult? Non standard R/S, terrible awful rage inducing SDI connector placement. Easily the worst genlock/rs/timecode connector/cable management system imaginable, the terribly designed PL mount, (why are there no ears for leverage like every other PL mount ever put on a film body) the lack of hard locks on the SSD slot. (The fact I have to tape the god damn mags on in a 3D beamsplitter setup to keep them from falling out makes me angry) The touch screen interface (good luck using it underwater, or with heavy gloves, or by feel when not able to visually see the display) the single LCD/EVF output. The non standard spacing of the 3/8 holes on the bottom. The fact that the pinout on the back of the camera is exposed. Or the expansion modules all being universally terrible (different SSD size for proxies? Could use a standard like CF or 2.5ssds but instead a whole new mini mag) or the cables for the meizler covering up the lightweight 15mm spacing because fuck us if we ever want to use light weight standard instead of having to top mount (because I love making the witness mark's difficult to read, not that red pro primes have usuable marks anyway) I'd also like to point out the modules are only coming out now, years after the cameras tumbled onto set. Also hilariously enough all the external modules have to plug into the video I/O ports to get image out of the camera anyway so it looks like it's on life support and expose it connector failure and cable failure. Speaking of that who's the bright guy who thought making the only interfaces to operate the camera system a useless remote and a touch screen panel? A panel using a stiff multi pins cable that like to catch on anything and everything while being handled. I'd also like to point out the BOMB EVF is borderline unusable; It's magnification is completely wrong giving the operator a tiny, dim, muddy magenta, detail-less image to somehow preform their job with. What horrible world do we know live in where the operator has the worst monitoring ability of everyone in the visual chain? An onboard assistant with a DP6 has a better chance of catching reflections or booms than the operator does.

But all this is acceptable because for the price. It's an unfortunate race to the bottom, but I guess I simply expect a professional cinema camera system to have... I don't know a top handle so it can be carried? I cede that Red has done a lot for the industry in pushing the real camera makers forward. And you can't fault them for the image they produce, but if the artist has to fight their tools does it make them a better artist? Who's to say, but if a technician has to fight their tools, it definitely makes them less effective, and that is and where red always has been on my bad side.

I'd say the thing I hate most about how Red has lowered the standards of what is acceptable in this industry. You get what you pay for it true as always.
 
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A short list of gripes:
3.5mm audio jacks
A wee bit more grain than I'd like at 800ISO
Expensive SSDs
Peaking needs to be fine-tuned or adjustable (or other focus-assist modes implemented like the 1:1 picture-in-picture window that someone mentioned earlier)

But none of that keeps me from loving shooting on an Epic.
 
Also black? Really? The color that is both negative fill and absorbs the most heat imaginable? Every ARRI body since the MOVIECAM acquisition has been neutral grey for this very reason. I'll give credit for the scarlet being a normal color. A step in the right direction.
 
Tom C. Hall said:
Also black? Really? The color that is both negative fill and absorbs the most heat imaginable? Every ARRI body since the MOVIECAM acquisition has been neutral grey for this very reason. I'll give credit for the scarlet being a normal color. A step in the right direction.
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Hey, Tom! <3

On a more relevant note, I am not really knowledgeable enough about gear to comment extensively on the pros and cons of the Epic or Scarlet vs. other cameras. I will say that I don't like that delay between pressing the 1:1 pixel button where the screen goes all wonky. Also, I'd love to be able to move around the image while zoomed in to take a look at different parts of the image. The fans are pretty damn loud too (looking forward to the upgrade which sounds great). I really like the images that come out of both cameras though and have learned a great deal by using them.
 
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I'm with you on 90% of thesse (not looked at a Meizler module so I can't comment, and my redmote has been trouble free and quite useful). However, I would add that the awful colours of the OLED EVF really do need to be addressed.

That said, I do love my camera (Scarlet not Epic, but I think the points still apply).

Alex

Michael Romano said:
Before I get started, the camera takes a beautiful picture. Everything leading up to seeing that picture is a different story.

#1 - Basic camera body doesn't support EVF & LCD at the same time.

#2 - Cannot get REDLogFilm out HD-SDI and REDGamma3 on EVF & LCD at the same time. Kind of moot - See point #1

#3 - Can't use another on board monitor in RG3 and send REDLOGFilm out HDSDI 'cause only one HD-SDI tap. Not to mention needing a tool to unplug HDSDI cables.

#4 - REDMOTE. 'nuff said. Never worked on any combination of units. Ever. Totally unreliable and without a REAL ANTENNA.

#5 - Rolling shutter. The new hack fix is not acceptable. RED gets a reprieve on this one cause few others can deliver here either.

#6 - 3:1 compression. Seriously? For the cost of those redmags, we should be able to get rid of the compression all together.

#7 - Just about everything relating to the MEIZLER module. Should have come with the camera. Should also have come with an ANTENNA.

#8 - REDVOLT. What was this for again?

#9 - Fan noise. This fix should have been free. The thing is a turbine engine and really makes us look bad on a quiet, intimate set.

#10 - Audio. Do it right or just ditch it. It is totally OK if it is not included but having it there makes people think its OK to use.

#11 - Cost of redmags. High end, off the shelf SSD's (See BMD's camera) is the way to go. This isn't the data of the Phantom, even at 6K.

Love it, Hate it. </vent>
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Major one for me is not being able to shoot HD without cropping. (downscale) Ninja is a good solution but I dont see myself shooting with two monitors unless i grow a third arm.

But no hate... just frustration lol hoping for a dragon upgrade price drop too.
 
Michael Romano said:
Before I get started, the camera takes a beautiful picture. Everything leading up to seeing that picture is a different story.

#1 - Basic camera body doesn't support EVF & LCD at the same time.

#2 - Cannot get REDLogFilm out HD-SDI and REDGamma3 on EVF & LCD at the same time. Kind of moot - See point #1

#3 - Can't use another on board monitor in RG3 and send REDLOGFilm out HDSDI 'cause only one HD-SDI tap. Not to mention needing a tool to unplug HDSDI cables.

#4 - REDMOTE. 'nuff said. Never worked on any combination of units. Ever. Totally unreliable and without a REAL ANTENNA.

#5 - Rolling shutter. The new hack fix is not acceptable. RED gets a reprieve on this one cause few others can deliver here either.

#6 - 3:1 compression. Seriously? For the cost of those redmags, we should be able to get rid of the compression all together.

#7 - Just about everything relating to the MEIZLER module. Should have come with the camera. Should also have come with an ANTENNA.

#8 - REDVOLT. What was this for again?

#9 - Fan noise. This fix should have been free. The thing is a turbine engine and really makes us look bad on a quiet, intimate set.

#10 - Audio. Do it right or just ditch it. It is totally OK if it is not included but having it there makes people think its OK to use.

#11 - Cost of redmags. High end, off the shelf SSD's (See BMD's camera) is the way to go. This isn't the data of the Phantom, even at 6K.

Love it, Hate it. </vent>
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#1 Agreed - but Red apparently made the decision to keep the basic Brain as small as possible.
#2 Probably a function of how many image processors they can cram on limited circuit board real estate
#3 Same reason as #1, but agree connector placement and ergonomics is one of Red's weak points overall
#4 Mine seems to work, but there are many complaints of ones that don't
#5 Rolling shutter was a deliberate decision, as it allowed higher framerates (at least at the time)
#6 Uncompressed is unnecessary when 3:1 gives you mathematically lossless at much smaller filesizes - makes those expensive SSDs hold more data
#7 Meizler is lovely - and yet non modular and too expensive for the vast majority of Epic owners
#8 Redvolts are useful for certain scenarios
#9 Fan noise - should be a lower cost/free upgrade - but at least there's an improvement
#10 AUDIO is my personal gripe - Don't ditch it, but make it right. It should have had at least the mini-XLRs, it should have had LINE LEVEL in, and it should have been at least as good qualitywise as the R1 with upgraded audio board. As it is, it's not even as good as the non-phantom power board in the original Epic-Ms and that wasn't great.
#11 Cost of media is an issue agreed. But I understand why they might be the price they are.
 
Owen Rennie said:
Tv, web, docos etc the c300 is fine. Not one non camera guy would even notice the different image quality. I'm all about image quality but I feel that only about 1% of the population notice something as beautiful as Red.
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Audiences notice when your stuff looks sub-par. They may not have the words, but don't kid yourself. If your career goals are mediocrity and low budgets, then hey, keep shooting with prosumer cameras, and keeping talking about that 1%. I'd rather aim for the top of the market. BTW - name me one prime time (or network) show shot on c300.
 
Scott Brown said:
"C300 is fine unless you want to do any grading, the you see there ain't much there, under the hood."

Holds up just fine here...finish your edit, drop into a 10 bit u/c timeline & happy days. Certainly no complaints from our clients.

As good as Epic, no...but we've made lots of money with the C300.

Scott
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Whenever I hear "no complaints from our clients" from people using more limited gear I think that either the clients have obviously lower standards than mine, or that the goals were very limited. We could not do many of the things we do without an Epic, and for sure our clients would notice the partial to total fail if we tried.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
Audiences notice when your stuff looks sub-par. They may not have the words, but don't kid yourself. If your career goals are mediocrity and low budgets, then hey, keep shooting with prosumer cameras, and keeping talking about that 1%. I'd rather aim for the top of the market. BTW - name me one prime time (or network) show shot on c300.
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Shows like NCIS LA uses C300's as well as 5D's as b-cams I believe (as well as go pro's or whatever sort of crash cam they need in a given situation.) I am sure the people operating those cameras in those situation don't think that they are prosumers or mediocre. Tools are tools, and the people at the top of the market are there not because the tool they use is capable of putting in the top of the market, but because the work they do and the connections they have made show that they belong there.
 
I can't name any sorry, but if they shot two and a half Men on the c300 I'm sure I'd still enjoy it equally. I just feel people get carried away in all these new sensors and technolegy. Don't gets wrong I love Epic, no hate here, I'm upgrading to dragon ASAP.
 
Tom C. Hall said:
Also black? Really? The color that is both negative fill and absorbs the most heat imaginable? Every ARRI body since the MOVIECAM acquisition has been neutral grey for this very reason. I'll give credit for the scarlet being a normal color. A step in the right direction.
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Since you're just ranting, you probably don't care, but black also radiates heat better than any other color. And since the camera runs warmer than the ambient temp in most situations, being black helps with cooling. (Cooling would also be a function of those "stupid non-functional ribs".)
 
I think the important thing to remember is that what truly drives quality is not the kit, it is the talent behind it. You can have the best camera in the world, and I do count Epic in this category, BUT it only guarantees high quality crap without the creative brains and talent to drive it.

Biggest mistake anyone can ever make in this industry is to put equipment ahead of crew - should always be the other way. I would argue that I have shot some of my best footage on the canon C300, simply because it's the quickest and easiest camera to use and when you get those magical moments when you just need to grab a camera to get the shot, the C300 is what I would usually go to first.

The camera is just a tool, a talented DOP will capture magic with a 5D way before an average Joe will deliver anything with an Epic!

Scott
 
since this thread is getting derailed a lot.... I'll just throw in a little bit more hate;

- the touchscreen is a "mirror" and prone to smearing and fingerprints...
(that's in the nature of a touchscreen, but well - I'm sure one could play around with coatings a bit)

- the SDI-port plus cheap cables is horrible to unplug (sometimes impossible without additional tools)...

ok, finished... there's much more LOVE then HATE from my side tho - just to note that :)
 
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