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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What 8k will look like.

Björn Benckert said:
Agree.
Another point for me is that 8k makes chroma key just that much better noise levels are reduced with the pixel count which means far easer to get out the fine detail. For most of the stuff we do I tend to like a lot of grain in the final product but it´ so much nicer to add that in the end of the process than getting it in camera as it really does not help the VFX work. Being able to scale and pan around in glass images, track stuff without gitter due to noise, pull perfec keys on fine detail etc and then when done give it all a choosen texture buy adding grain, evenly on the zoomed scaled blurred or what have you images. Well, can not wait to have it.

But yes above all the large sensor feel is what trumps it all for me. Just thinking that a 58mm would fill out whats blacks in these images makes me drool. :)
Click to expand...


Oh,

Absolutely!

I am positive that every FX house or heavily FX film based will look at this in exactly the same fashion... No doubt!!

We are talking about a real SHIT load of info here...

One of my first MAJOR tests will be to do a 24fps at lowest Redcode allowed then slowed to 100fps in post, and 100fps in camera at forced Redcode... And see which one will hold up better on screen.

Fact is I need several sequences for my next project to be at 1000fps so I need to see how the Weapon 8k will hold up post workflow to take it from 24fps to 1000fps in both 8k and 4k... Then compare it in detail with the FLEX 4k at 1000fps...

I just don't want to carry an other complete camera and it's ecosystem... Never mind the fact that I prefer/need a second Weapon 8k body as back up... :)
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
Oh,

Absolutely!

I am positive that every FX house or heavily FX film based will look at this in exactly the same fashion... No doubt!!

We are talking about a real SHIT load of info here...

One of my first MAJOR tests will be to do a 24fps at lowest Redcode allowed then slowed to 100fps in post, and 100fps in camera at forced Redcode... And see which one will hold up better on screen.

Fact is I need several sequences for my next project to be at 1000fps so I need to see how the Weapon 8k will hold up post workflow to take it from 24fps to 1000fps in both 8k and 4k... Then compare it in detail with the FLEX 4k at 1000fps...

I just don't want to carry an other complete camera and it's ecosystem... Never mind the fact that I prefer/need a second Weapon 8k body as back up... :)
Click to expand...

For frame rates Flex beats the shit out of weapon, even the 8k version there of. motion estimate timeworn is helped a little bit of less noise but, the devil is also in the details and simply put the more you have in your image the more difficult will it be to handle paralax changes.

We just did a 4k phantom thing and even in low light that thing performs pretty well. This had a run trough red giant to remove the little bit digital looking noise it has and then we aded a film stock grain instead, again a lot of detail that no time warp tool on earth can handle, you would have get artefacts all over the place.

http://www.syndicate.se/idrottsgalan-2016/



You can download them in full 4k to have a closer look. And just to explain those are not fashion filmes but little promotion films for a Track and Field sport event.
 
We'll take a look at...

Main issue with this project is that we need to pool all the Stills form every single sequence, and in many cases there will NOT be a second chance... This is why I am hopeful toward the Weapon 8k giving a decent enough 1000fps UHD4k DCP while allowing for the full 35 megapixels Stills.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
We'll take a look at...

Main issue with this project is that we need to pool all the Stills form every single sequence, and in many cases there will NOT be a second chance... This is why I am hopeful toward the Weapon 8k giving a decent enough 1000fps UHD4k DCP while allowing for the full 35 megapixels Stills.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you shoot of course but post FX slomo is known for one thing which is edge artifacts. No way around that, things that interest and move in parallax, transparent object, fine detail, repetitive patterns etc. all makes it go bad. So to me it´s nothing to rely on not even to go speed slow it down like 6 times makes those errors just even more visible.
 
Agree, 24fps to 1000fps in post, good luck.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
He he, for that I have the Leica S... :)

Seriously, it's just a test...
Click to expand...

That's great. You're the man. I was looking for a real life size comparison between a red camera and the leica S. Could you take a picture of them side by side? That would be great.
 
Björn Benckert said:
For frame rates Flex beats the shit out of weapon, even the 8k version there of. motion estimate timeworn is helped a little bit of less noise but, the devil is also in the details and simply put the more you have in your image the more difficult will it be to handle paralax changes.

We just did a 4k phantom thing and even in low light that thing performs pretty well. This had a run trough red giant to remove the little bit digital looking noise it has and then we aded a film stock grain instead, again a lot of detail that no time warp tool on earth can handle, you would have get artefacts all over the place.

http://www.syndicate.se/idrottsgalan-2016/



You can download them in full 4k to have a closer look. And just to explain those are not fashion filmes but little promotion films for a Track and Field sport event.
Click to expand...

Awesome Björn
 
Björn Benckert said:
Agree.
Another point for me is that 8k makes chroma key just that much better noise levels are reduced with the pixel count which means far easer to get out the fine detail. For most of the stuff we do I tend to like a lot of grain in the final product but it´ so much nicer to add that in the end of the process than getting it in camera as it really does not help the VFX work. Being able to scale and pan around in glass images, track stuff without gitter due to noise, pull perfec keys on fine detail etc and then when done give it all a choosen texture buy adding grain, evenly on the zoomed scaled blurred or what have you images. Well, can not wait to have it.

But yes above all the large sensor feel is what trumps it all for me. Just thinking that a 58mm would fill out whats blacks in these images makes me drool. :)
Click to expand...

Curiously, many TV shows seem to shoot at ISO1280 on the Dragon, so I wonder how they solve the vast amount of VFX that goes into that. I've gotten a lot of shit from keyers when just shooting around ISO500 so it's hard giving them what they want even on "normal" ISOs.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Curiously, many TV shows seem to shoot at ISO1280 on the Dragon, so I wonder how they solve the vast amount of VFX that goes into that. I've gotten a lot of shit from keyers when just shooting around ISO500 so it's hard giving them what they want even on "normal" ISOs.
Click to expand...

ISO does not mean much if light is right. Fat histogram without the sadly uberly common starved blue channel and things will look splendid in 1280iso, when your blue channel is hardly there or very low (using tungsten and no filter on camera shoting underexposed) then keys will suffer pretty much no matter what iso. the trick is too make all 3 channels land in the middle of the color cube.
 
Mike P. said:
You could stitch together 4x4k frames and get a fairly accurate representation, no?
Click to expand...

Not completely true as you use the same part of the lens projection for all. But yes it would give an idea for sure. We actually did a 18k 4xMX 5k to make 360 epic stitch thing for City bank when the MX came out. And they build / programed a setup to play those frames. I never saw it live but a film of the event and it looked pretty massive :)
 
Will they ever make a 4K 3ccd sensor? I thought they would have by now since it was the best years ago.
 
Björn Benckert said:
The lower noise give better DR which makes it possible to light with less, more un even, and ill balanced lights.
Click to expand...

Which tends to lead to crappy looking imagery and "fix it in post".

Björn Benckert said:
The framing arguments? Now, if no matter where you point the camera you could record full 360 with no quality loss all the time with no extra cost or struggle you would opt against it?
Click to expand...

Light is often designed for a specific shot and framing and light fixtures require space.

Björn Benckert said:
As it would ruin the "artform".. to me having the option to go in and alter the aim of the cramera in post is not ruining the art form it´s improving it.
Click to expand...

Because you specialize in post and think accordingly.

Björn Benckert said:
So as you think like that, is prerecord also ruining the artform?
Click to expand...

Pre-record is not a proper analogy to re-framing.

Post re-framing is re-defining and fixing the shot.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Which tends to lead to crappy looking imagery and "fix it in post".



Light is often designed for a specific shot and framing and light fixtures require space.



Because you specialize in post and think accordingly.



Pre-record is not a proper analogy to re-framing.

Post re-framing is re-defining and fixing the shot.
Click to expand...


Yes, possibly I think different working in post. But I been to a few shoots so I understand that normally the set is not built or lit to be shoot much wider then the intended shot. So yes even if camera could record 360 then 90% of that would be studio lights, crew and the normal behind the camera mayhem. But what I'm saying is, 8k can proved some "buffer". Or to be more correct about 1/4 more buffer than 6k. So another analogy: Just as you can (and probably do) shoot you takes a bit longer and cover your scenes with more angles then you probably will end up using in the edit, you can with 8k shoot them a bit wider to have a buffer for framing. Not always needed, but still I see no difference there.

Simply I don't see that the approach of shooting a bit overscan, the way Fincher is practicing, is to ruin the artform of good framings, on the contrary.

But yes, why shoot 8k or 6k as it's totally possible to lit things in perfect balance and perfect range, frame as should and shoot 4k for 4k and have more than plenty if all is done right. But all productions I worked on have been a struggle against time, available light or budget or usually all three. I'm not saying 8k will make life easier, but I'm sure, just as every other time when tech is significantly improved it will change how we work. And to me 8k is a pretty big improvement.
 
@ Hrvoje

Totally agree ....... but then again are we dinosaurs stomping around a post Yucatan world ; ) ?
 
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