Weapon Lenses

[Richard Kynaston]

Thanks Phil,
Having just been reading your lens posting, I discovered what you have just quoted! Thanks again.

Richard

 

[Kyle Dones]

Stay tuned. I'm going to explore and test "everything".

But if you're curious I have sets of several series of prime lenses designed for VV and beyond. Some of those have been used on VistaVision before

Test Zeiss ZF (and others of course) but here in this thread

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?132182-RED-Weapon-Dragon-Immersive-Viewing

it shows Weapon 8K at its lowest is 44mm image circle (@8K HD) while I believe my set of ZF have highest of 43mm. Post in this thread have me confused.

 

[Phil Holland]

Test Zeiss ZF (and others of course) but here in this thread

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?132182-RED-Weapon-Dragon-Immersive-Viewing

it shows Weapon 8K at its lowest is 44mm image circle (@8K HD) while I believe my set of ZF have highest of 43mm. Post in this thread have me confused.

Lenses are designed for a specific optimal image circle and to perform within a set guideline of tolerances. Many lenses exceed their designed for format, which is why we have been able to get away with many S35 lenses on Dragon at 5.5K-6K for those that play nice.

Until myself or others who you can trust test them on Weapon 8K Dragon and make specific observations about coverage, portholing, field illumination, etc.... I wouldn't freak out. I'm actually very familiar with the vast majority of FF35 glass and I think for the most part it will be good-ish news for most lenses in terms of coverage overall. That said, a lot of FF35 glass is where manufacturers really flexed their optimal design muscles to save on material cost and final lens weight.

We'll have to wait and see. I have a nice, easy, and portable way to test all of this out. Whenever Jarred sends a flare I'll be there.

 

[Rodrigo Prata]

The only mount update we have seen thus far is the new MG PL Mount which has captive bolts, which is nice.

I would Really like to have captive bolts on the OLPFs. I would Buy then again without ever thinking twice if I was guarantied to not ever drop a bolt inside the sensor again...

 

[Max S.]

At the moment there's a few lenses designed for larger formats like RED Weapon 8K Dragon:

- Panavision Series 70 T2 Primes
- Zeiss Compact Zooms (PL or EF Mount)
- Schneider Xenon FF-Primes (PL or EF Mount)
- Zeiss Compact Primes (PL or EF Mount)
- Canon CN-E Primes (EF Mount or PL Mount if modified at Duclos Lenses)
- Canon, Sigma, Nikon, Zeiss, Tokina, Tamron, Voigtlander Still Glass ( not EF-s or DX lenses)
- Rokinon (EF or F Mount)
- *some Leica, Zeiss, and Voigtlander M-Mount Lenses (Leica M Mount)
- Various Vintage Leica-R, Canon FD, Yashica, Zeiss, Tokina, Tamron, Pentax, Olympus OM, Helios, etc.... lenses can be adapted to common modern mounts.
- Any and all Medium Format Still glass that also can be adapted to modern mounts.

So I got it right that Canon Still Lenses like the 24-70 F/2.8 , 70-200 F/2.8 and the other lenses will work fine on the sensor?

 

[Mike Nagel]

So I got it right that Canon Still Lenses like the 24-70 F/2.8 , 70-200 F/2.8 and the other lenses will work fine on the sensor?

unless you physically measured the image circle of all of these lenses, everything posted is just a guess until one actually tries them out on the sensor... and obviously some W VV formats will be "easier" to cover than 8K FF...

 

[PatrickFaith]

unless you physically measured the image circle of all of these lenses, everything posted is just a guess until one actually tries them out on the sensor... and obviously some W VV formats will be "easier" to cover than 8K FF...

One thing I like to do, to see is if still glass is usable as cinema glass is go over to http://www.dxomark.com and look at the vignetting. The vignetting field map and global map is what I look at. For example the Carl Zeiss Distagon T 35mm f/1.4 is only really usable if your panning above f2.8 (which btw would be in cinema land t3.1). I find most lenses are pretty good above f4 on vignetting on VV. But I find most of my lenses will have problems on panning&tracking&etc below T3. Also if one doesn't want ones post vfx cost to go up, I like to look at the distortion measurements which I think are a bit understated (using the dxomark tests) for VV since they are often worse on the edge of the film plane.

 

[Mike Nagel]

One thing I like to do, to see is if still glass is usable as cinema glass is go over to http://www.dxomark.com and look at the vignetting. The vignetting field map and global map is what I look at. For example the Carl Zeiss Distagon T 35mm f/1.4 is only really usable if your panning above f2.8 (which btw would be in cinema land t3.1). I find most lenses are pretty good above f4 on vignetting on VV. But I find most of my lenses will have problems on panning&tracking&etc below T3. Also if one doesn't want ones post vfx cost to go up, I like to look at the distortion measurements which I think are a bit understated (using the dxomark tests) for VV since they are often worse on the edge of the film plane.

Checkerboards all day, buddy ;-)))

 

[Nick Morrison]

One thing I like to do, to see is if still glass is usable as cinema glass is go over to http://www.dxomark.com and look at the vignetting. The vignetting field map and global map is what I look at. For example the Carl Zeiss Distagon T 35mm f/1.4 is only really usable if your panning above f2.8 (which btw would be in cinema land t3.1). I find most lenses are pretty good above f4 on vignetting on VV. But I find most of my lenses will have problems on panning&tracking&etc below T3. Also if one doesn't want ones post vfx cost to go up, I like to look at the distortion measurements which I think are a bit understated (using the dxomark tests) for VV since they are often worse on the edge of the film plane.

Medium Format glass should help considerably with the vignetting, I have to imagine!

 

[PatrickFaith]

Medium Format glass should help considerably with the vignetting, I have to imagine!

That's for sure, guys on the manual medium format's are set. Really i have plenty of lenses that will work on the WW, so i'm set too.

( BUT ... I would love a RED electronic mount for the newer Hasselblad's like the 35-90mm f/4-5.6 HCD Aspherical Zoom Lens ... more of a obsessive want then a need)

 

[Mike Nagel]

I wanna see RED release a new set of primes, full 8K coverage, high quality cine glass...

 

[Elsie N]

Phil or anyone else who knows...

Will having a bigger sensor require the Magnesium PL Mount have a bigger opening than previous PL mounts to take full advantage of 8k? If so, will the current RED Nikon mount require a larger opening?

I know they said all current mounts would work with Weapon, but I don't think they specifically said with Weapon 8k.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil or anyone else who knows...

Will having a bigger sensor require the Magnesium PL Mount have a bigger opening than previous PL mounts to take full advantage of 8k? If so, will the current RED Nikon mount require a larger opening?

I know they said all current mounts would work with Weapon, but I don't think they specifically said with Weapon 8k.

Nope. Your PL Mount is fine. As are the Canon and Leica Mounts as those have been designed to spec.

I don't have a Nikon mount to be sure, but if it's designed to the Nikon spec it should happily work.

 

[Elsie N]

Nope. Your PL Mount is fine. As are the Canon and Leica Mounts as those have been designed to spec.

I don't have a Nikon mount to be sure, but if it's designed to the Nikon spec it should happily work.

Just to follow up, if I get a Mamiya 645 lens (or a 6x6 or 6x7?) with an adapter to a RED Nikon Mount, will I be able to use the full Medium Format size of the lens to record 8k in manual mode?

Assuming of course that the RED Nikon mount is of sufficient size to allow all the sensor to "see".

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Phil, do you know if the Cooke Anamorphics will work without issues for 8K? My head is spinning with all this image circle data. Wish there were a simple chart that just lists all the NEWER lenses that work for 8K.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, do you know if the Cooke Anamorphics will work without issues for 8K? My head is spinning with all this image circle data. Wish there were a simple chart that just lists all the NEWER lenses that work for 8K.

There will be a newer chart. And it will be added too this list:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103766-Dragon-Lens-Coverage-Information

I've tested over 50 series of primes and zoom lenses at this point and this will need to happen again once I and "us" get an 8K body in our hands. We truly need to test coverage with the lens on the camera for a variety of reasons. It's just to early to really tell.

From my utterly brief experience with Cooke Anamorphic Primes I suspect that 8K 6:5 2X will work "as intended". However, that's just an educated guess. I feel this way for most anamorphic 2X glass available actually.

Stay tuned. This will be a developing story as we get closer to Weapon 8K Dragon being released.

 

[Wynn Padula]

Isn't the 8K RED VistaVision sensor smaller than a Full-Frame 35mm Sensor? I that case, if it works for FF it works for the 8k sensor, no?

Wynn Padula
Owner/Director of Photography
www.fastandlightproductions.com
Director: RESURFACE www.resurfacethemovie.com
Director of Photography: Slomo ( Acadamy Award Shortlist and SXSW winner )

 

[Phil Holland]

Isn't the 8K RED VistaVision sensor smaller than a Full-Frame 35mm Sensor? I that case, if it works for FF it works for the 8k sensor, no?

Wynn Padula
Owner/Director of Photography
www.fastandlightproductions.com
Director: RESURFACE www.resurfacethemovie.com
Director of Photography: Slomo ( Acadamy Award Shortlist and SXSW winner )

Smaller in height, wider in width. 40.96x21.60mm for 8K FF.

 

[ignition]

At the moment there's a few lenses designed for larger formats like RED Weapon 8K Dragon:

- Panavision Series 70 T2 Primes
- Zeiss Compact Zooms (PL or EF Mount)
- Schneider Xenon FF-Primes (PL or EF Mount)
- Zeiss Compact Primes (PL or EF Mount)
- Canon CN-E Primes (EF Mount or PL Mount if modified at Duclos Lenses)
- Canon, Sigma, Nikon, Zeiss, Tokina, Tamron, Voigtlander Still Glass ( not EF-s or DX lenses)
- Rokinon (EF or F Mount)
- *some Leica, Zeiss, and Voigtlander M-Mount Lenses (Leica M Mount)
- Various Vintage Leica-R, Canon FD, Yashica, Zeiss, Tokina, Tamron, Pentax, Olympus OM, Helios, etc.... lenses can be adapted to common modern mounts.
- Any and all Medium Format Still glass that also can be adapted to modern mounts.

Isn't it just a little cheekily pleasing to see Rokinon alongside Panavision, Zeiss, Schneider and Canon in consideration of 8K (24mm plus for FF35 coverage). I get this is budget glass and overlooked for anything serious.. but they're fast and light weight (particularly useful in aerial and HH gimbal work). From what I understand started life as cheap MF glass hence the cine adapted versions likely inherit the coverage we're hoping in 8K. The new DS series tries to address some of those color matching concerns and brings uniform focus/iris gears. Duclos published a great pragmatic article on them worth a read, for anyone not wholly offended by the concept of "budget cinematography"

https://matthewduclos.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/are-rokinon-primes-right-for-you/

That besides, a fast set of Leica R's remain an attractive proposition... has anyone had any experience with the GL Optics Leica R super speed mod set?

http://www.glcinemod.com/english.html

CP2's seem a saturated market and whilst beautiful glass seem slow (+cost for super speeds excepted). Our second choice was the Xenon-FF primes which seem great from a price/performance perspective yet 2+ years after Phil Holland's 2013 trial and test footage I just can't seem to find any solid cinematography promoting Dragon + Xenon primes. If anyone has any perspectives on this, and even some imagery to share - love to see it. TBH apart from a few rare examples, both the Xenon-FF and CN-E's seem to be shunned FF glass in the professional world. Or maybe I'm just not looking hard enough...?

Cheers
Darren

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

I haven't shot with xenon's yet, but I have shot with three different sets of Cannon CN-E primes on my Dragon and so far have not been impressed.

If you really like the Cannon look, I think you will like these lenses but I was not blown away by them. They roll off focus quite nicely, but they were a little too soft (and not in the pleasing Cooke-type soft). The look really isn't the dealbreaker for me though, its all the other boxes that this set fails to tick off.

First, this set is waaaaaaay overpriced considering it's essentially a rehouse job. It's the same glass as you get in an equivalent L Series prime, but with proper gear rings and housings (~25k for the EF version ~35K for the PL version. That is almost the price of a Mini S/4 set. What the hell????).
Second, even though Cannon has made an L Series lens for every possible focal length, they still decided not to rehouse an 18mm lens and instead rehouse a 14mm @ T3.1? What the hell is that? It seems a bit ridiculous that they have any imperfection in the design of this set of rehouses, considering they have one of the largest collections in the world to choose from. No excuses there.
Third, EF only isn't the end of the world for me because I have the Cannon mount as well, but it is silly to invest that much money into a lens set that can't be mounted onto a professional camera (unless you pay Duclos another $9,000!!!!!! to change every lens to PL).
Finally, inconsistent apertures across the board means that this isn't really a true cinema lens set, IMO.

If you only shoot on cameras with ef mounts, or really love the cannon look, then this set makes sense. But if not, then there are other sets that will probably make more sense.

I'm still holding out for a chance to rent out a set of xenons for a narrative shoot so I can really get to know them. But even if I absolutely fall in love with them, I will still probably get a Zeiss CZ 28-80 as soon as I can afford it.

FWIW I've heard some mumblings on REDUSER of some big lens sets coming out in the next two or so years. Maybe if Phil is being generous he can chime in with some fresh gossip.