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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weapon 8K Vs Epic-W: Differences?

Björn Benckert said:
I don't see it as I throw pixels away when I downsample. As it improves noise, sharpness etc. And dubbling the horisontal pixels is quite the opposite of that. But sure if you need to make a 4096x1716 or what ever format that is bigger than what the camera can capture than thats the only way.
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You have me confused Bjorn. Don't you always have to double the pixels when shooting anamorphic and then scale to whatever format you want? I'm guessing as I can't find the actual frame size on the red website but wouldn't Dragon shoot 3792 x 3160 (6:5) and then you would double horizontal pixels and scale down to 4K? Same as Alexa mini? The mini shoots about 1K less in either direction (2631 x 2202) but does shoot about a 20% larger picture area. By the way I am asking these as questions as I am trying to figure out the anamorphic thing.
 
Phil Holland said:
Two main considerations when talking Weapon 8K S35 and Epic-W is maximum data rate and maximum frame rates. Some people truly will need 8K at 60fps for instance (myself included!).

It's always good to look at everything to see the various differences between models. As usual I have a chart for such things:

http://phfx.com/tools/REDDSMC2CameraLineup/phfx_REDDSMC2OneSheet2016_big.png


Side note and on topic-ish thing. Epic Dragon and Weapon 6K S35 Dragon. Many have been working 5K-6K. 8K is indeed the new concept many are exploring. Helium sensor tech results in 7K being around Super 35mm in width, so I think for those shooting 5K say on Dragon, you may find your comfort zone around 7K Helium. Unless you're target delivery is 8K, then for sure shoot 8K.

There are notable differences between the two sensor technologies on a per format basis. Some come down to resolution and format, some come down say image texture.
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Hey Phil,

Been investigating on this and just about any awesome piece of info came from you, haha.


I am slightly confused... Looking at cropping images, Epic 8k Helium super 35 has slightly the same sensor size as Epic Dragon at 6k, correct?
And at 6k it would be equal to Epic dragon at 4k? Am I doing ok?

I was looking for a chart dedicated to the Epic 8k Helium resolutions, but could not find one... (just in case one exists, not like it is up to you to make it...)

Thanks in advance
 
Thank you Tom! And yep, that web tool allows you to create a comparison yourself!

Carlos Garcia said:
I was looking for a chart dedicated to the Epic 8k Helium resolutions, but could not find one... (just in case one exists, not like it is up to you to make it...)
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Here you go:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?&formatOne_typeTech=RED|Helium%208K%20S35&formatOne_format=6K%20FF&formatTwo_typeTech=RED|Dragon%208K%20VV&formatTwo_format=4.5K%20FF

What you actually want is Helium 6K and Dragon 4.5K :)
 
what is the reasoning for the dragon 6k ff being 1.03x larger than the helium 8k ff FOV? thanks!
 
paul Robinson said:
what is the reasoning for the dragon 6k ff being 1.03x larger than the helium 8k ff FOV? thanks!
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I think it simply has todo with the different pixel sizes.

It's a negligible difference by most standards. I don't think anyone would notice in the real world.
 
Second question:
If Weapon can double the Frame Rate of Epic-W at 8K . . . why can it not do so at all Frame Rates, like 4K @240fps. That would be awesome
 
Zeb B said:
Second question:
If Weapon can double the Frame Rate of Epic-W at 8K . . . why can it not do so at all Frame Rates, like 4K @240fps. That would be awesome
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That would be awesome, but that is indeed a readout speed limitation of the sensor tech.

For now.
 
Phil Holland said:
That would be awesome, but that is indeed a readout speed limitation of the sensor tech.

For now.
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Boy, sure would be cool if RED released a firmware update for Weapon to allow the frame rate increase to include 2K-5K before the September 28th deadline. 240fps @4K would very neato and help cover the $20K premium over the Epic-W.

So nothing formal on the Weapon v Epic-W future upgrade priority?
 
Zeb B said:
Boy, sure would be cool if RED released a firmware update for Weapon to allow the frame rate increase to include 2K-5K before the September 28th deadline. 240fps @4K would very neato and help cover the $20K premium over the Epic-W.

So nothing formal on the Weapon v Epic-W future upgrade priority?
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There isn't a firmware update that can change the max readout speed of a sensor. That's a hardware limitation.
 
Bare with me Phil ;-)

8K FF @60fps 12:1 = 270mps
4K FF @120fps 12:1 = 136mps

Seems to my iggnent self that you could double the 136mps and be at 272mps / 240fps and bamm firmware done. The Helium cams can do 240fps @2K so it can get it off the sensor at that rate. What is the bottleneck or limation so I can understand?
 
Zeb B said:
Bare with me Phil ;-)

8K FF @60fps 12:1 = 270mps
4K FF @120fps 12:1 = 136mps

Seems to my iggnent self that you could double the 136mps and be at 272mps / 240fps and bamm firmware done. The Helium cams can do 240fps @2K so it can get it off the sensor at that rate. What is the bottleneck or limation so I can understand?
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It's not a issue related to bitrate capabilities.
It's related to how fast the camera hardware is able to read the horizontal pixel lines presented in the recording area of the sensor.
So you would need different hardware to have a higher sensor readout speed.

That's how i understand it, someone please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong ;)
 
. . . but currently both Helium cams can do 300fps 4:1 @2K WS 203mps

By current specs Helium electronics can:
Read out data off the sensor to at least 300fps
Write data to the card to at least 270mps
The Weapon is rated to 300mps, Epic-W 275mps

What's the missing element that prevents 240fps @4K 272mps?

Not trying to be a pest - just trying to become better learned about limitations / potential of this series of awesome cams
 
Yeah the Helium 300 FPS readout is for 2048 horizontal pixels (which is a very small part of the sensor, so Helium is not able to read out the whole sensor 300 times per second), but not for 4096 horizontal pixels. I would really love the idea of this, but i don't think there is any chance to see this in real.
 
Finn Möller said:
Yeah the Helium 300 FPS readout is for 2048 horizontal pixels (which is a very small part of the sensor, so Helium is not able to read out the whole sensor 300 times per second), but not for 4096 horizontal pixels. I would really love the idea of this, but i don't think there is any chance to see this in real.
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Makes sense but the fps and data rates are weirdly non-linear between the Weapon and Epic-W. Both cameras become the same at 6K and below, while the Weapon has twice the performance at 6.5K and above. Looks like there's some locked up potential in Weapon that could be released at some point with some refinements to the maths. Maybe there will be a Christmas surprise from RED:

For Immediate Release - December 14, 2017
RED is pleased to announce a major performance upgrade for Helium cameras. Existing Weapon owners will receive a free update via firmware allowing 4K @240fps and all Epic-W owners can send in their cams for a full Weapon upgrade for the cost of $20K to get this increased frame rate which is proportionally scaled through all resolutions.

;-)
 
Zeb B said:
Looks like there's some locked up potential in Weapon that could be released at some point with some refinements to the maths. Maybe there will be a Christmas surprise from RED:
Click to expand...




nHYHNCc.jpg





Limiting factor:





vHCnNoj.jpg
 
Jacobo Martinez said:
Will the sensor swap for the new red line of cameras be something like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=217&v=saUTJNaEwdk
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If we are talking the "current line of cameras", nope. Not at the moment at least. It will require sending the camera into RED for the Sensor Swap Program. It's at the moment only available for Weapon class cameras due to some base hardware differences. RED stores the sensor safely in a clean environment as well.

RED's sensor swap is a bit more "inside the brain" and there will be a QC attached to it I'm sure before the camera goes out. Specific details haven't been announced just yet, but it's expected the turn around time will be pretty reasonable.

The advantage of RED's method is your sensor swap is likely happening inside a Class 100 clean room and any sort of badness that could come from field swapping "won't happen". Also that bit of QC I think is useful. Curious to know if RED sets the back focus too with this procedure.

Sony's method can happen in the field and swaps everything including the mount. It's not clear how susceptible to interference via contamination, i.e. like a stray hair or something, but it is a fast method of swapping the sensor on set.

As for a "new RED line of cameras", unknown.
 
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