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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weapon 8K Vs Epic-W: Differences?

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Evan Ziss

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Am I missing something? Besides frame rates, minute data rate differences and body build materials, are there really no huge differences between the Weapon 8K and the Epic-W except price and the availability of an upgrade path (which I'm sure will change by NAB or sometime next year)? I know that back in the day, RED stated that the Scarlet was using the same MX sensor that was in the Epic but I felt that I could see significant differences in image quality between the two cameras. I am just wondering if the same goes for the Epic-W and the Weapon 8K using the same Helium sensor. Has anyone shot a side-by-side and noticed a difference? So far everything I've been seeing with the Epic-W looks pretty phenomenal.


Just asking before I go in debt for the next few years to try affording a Weapon 8K when I could just be getting an Epic-W. Thanks in advance for any advice or insight!
 
Same. And about 90% of my clients want at least 48fps. However I feel that I can still deliver a decent 6k 48fps image with the Epic-W mainly because the Helium seems to be much cleaner than the Dragon. Unless people have noticed a huge difference when cropping in. I always did going from 6k to 4k on my Dragon if lighting conditions weren't ideal.
 
Evan Ziss said:
Same. And about 90% of my clients want at least 48fps. However I feel that I can still deliver a decent 6k 48fps image with the Epic-W mainly because the Helium seems to be much cleaner than the Dragon. Unless people have noticed a huge difference when cropping in. I always did going from 6k to 4k on my Dragon if lighting conditions weren't ideal.
Click to expand...

YES. But Helium 6k has same crop factor as Dragon 4K, so it's a smaller sensor than Dragon 6K.

Worth keeping in mind.

We shoot on 2 Epic Dragons, and have ALWAYS shot projects at 6K or 5K, and always need 48fps - so we've been asking the same questions you are.
 
I'm in the same boat. I bought the Epic-W and love it but 75% of what I shoot is b-roll at 48-60fps. The image quality from the Epic-W at 7k and 8k is a considerable jump from Dragon, in my opinion. For me it's more about the image texture and color than it is about the resolution. I have found that having to crop in to 6k for high frame rates still yields a really nice image, but it loses some of the magic that you get at full sensor readout. So I'm debating whether or not to sell the EW and get the Weapon Helium. The extra $20k seems like a steep price to pay for basically getting higher frame rates at 7k and 8k, but I'm also keeping in mind that I'm buying into one of the premium upgrade paths and the camera should hold it's value really well for a quite a while. At that price though I keep wondering if I should jump ship and get an Alexa Mini because in my humble opinion the Alexa image is still the best. Decisions decisions...
 
Two main considerations when talking Weapon 8K S35 and Epic-W is maximum data rate and maximum frame rates. Some people truly will need 8K at 60fps for instance (myself included!).

It's always good to look at everything to see the various differences between models. As usual I have a chart for such things:

http://phfx.com/tools/REDDSMC2CameraLineup/phfx_REDDSMC2OneSheet2016_big.png


Side note and on topic-ish thing. Epic Dragon and Weapon 6K S35 Dragon. Many have been working 5K-6K. 8K is indeed the new concept many are exploring. Helium sensor tech results in 7K being around Super 35mm in width, so I think for those shooting 5K say on Dragon, you may find your comfort zone around 7K Helium. Unless you're target delivery is 8K, then for sure shoot 8K.

There are notable differences between the two sensor technologies on a per format basis. Some come down to resolution and format, some come down say image texture.
 
This is exactly what I fear if I move to Epic-W from Dragon. I'd say 70% of the music videos and commercial spots I shoot require overcranking. And, if clients request Red from this point on they're going to want the Weapon Helium, hands down. Right now, my Dragon keeps chugging along and clients are happy with it, especially since 6k R3D files can be cut very easily now without hardware acceleration. I don't even transcode anymore. I just edit the 6k source files and everything works great.

I kind of wish Red hadn't fragmented their line to this degree and pushed their top end camera into the $50k realm. If Weapon Helium sat a little closer to where Epic-W sat, they'd have my money in a heart beat. It feels like they wanted to position Weapon as close as possible to the Arri Mini in price. But I wish they'd stuck to that rebellious Red spirit and undercut them severely with their flagship camera. Most of my friends in LA sold their Dragons to purchase Arri Mini's. And those cameras do get rented out a ton. But had they been able to save $20k going to a Weapon Helium, I bet they would've done it. However, I'll be the first to admit that I am candidly spouting all this stuff out, with no real knowledge as to how much Red is spending on their backend in R & D and manufacturing. So it's probably easier said then done for Red to have just magically made the Weapon more affordable. The Weapon's current price point might be required to keep the company moving forward.

The Epic-W is clearly the result of there being such a huge gap between Red's flagship camera and the Scarlet. There are a ton of customers like me that own Dragons, would love to upgrade but just can't justify owning the Weapon. The Epic-W fills that gap. Unfortunately, it is a camera that reduces some of the functionality that we as Dragon owners have all become accustomed to. This is Red's fault for making the Dragon such a bad ass camera at such a great price! I don't want to give up those frame rates! I've even searched around for other cameras on the market and there is just no competition when it comes to frame rates and image quality. Sure the Epic-W gives you a lot more in image quality, but frame rates are a really big deal for the work I do, and they may be the one thing that keeps a Dragon in my hands right now. Perhaps I'll just keep on saving for a Helium and by the time I've got enough Red will have announced a new body with ND's.
 
Last edited:
Derek Doublin said:
This is exactly what I fear if I move to Epic-W from Dragon. I'd say 70% of the music videos and commercial spots I shoot require overcranking. And, if clients request Red from this point on they're going to want the Weapon Helium, hands down. Right now, my Dragon keeps chugging along and clients are happy with it, especially since 6k R3D files can be cut very easily now without hardware acceleration. I don't even transcode anymore. I just edit the 6k source files and everything works great.

I kind of wish Red hadn't fragmented their line to this degree and pushed their top end camera into the $50k realm. If Weapon Helium sat a little closer to where Epic-W sat, they'd have my money in a heart beat. It feels like they wanted to position Weapon as close as possible to the Arri Mini in price. But I wish they'd stuck to that rebellious Red spirit and undercut them severely with their flagship camera. Most of my friends in LA sold their Dragons to purchase Arri Mini's. And those cameras do get rented out a ton. But had they been able to save $20k going to a Weapon Helium, I bet they would've done it. However, I'll be the first to admit that I am candidly spouting all this stuff out, with no real knowledge as to how much Red is spending on their backend in R & D and manufacturing. So it's probably easier said then done for Red to have just magically made the Weapon more affordable. The Weapon's current price point might be required to keep the company moving forward.

The Epic-W is clearly the result of there being such a huge gap between Red's flagship camera and the Scarlet. There are a ton of customers like me that own Dragons, would love to upgrade but just can't justify owning the Weapon. The Epic-W fills that gap. Unfortunately, it is a camera that reduces some of the functionality that we as Dragon owners have all become accustomed to. This is Red's fault for making the Dragon such a bad ass camera at such a great price! I don't want to give up those frame rates! I've even searched around for other cameras on the market and there is just no competition when it comes to frame rates and image quality. Sure the Epic-W gives you a lot more in image quality, but frame rates are a really big deal for the work I do, and they may be the one thing that keeps a Dragon in my hands right now. Perhaps I'll just keep on saving for a Helium and by the time I've got enough Red will have announced a new body with ND's.
Click to expand...
¨

Then again how many frames can alexa mini do raw? 48?

Another thing to think about... I currently working on a alexa mini raw / cooke ana production and when image is squeezed to it´s 2880x1080 (full frame arri with ana) the image is covering a little bit more then the upper left corner on my consumer TV set.... For me to buy such camera today is nuts.

I think this image says a lot. https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=0cb36026fa02f9c01c0df839665a5b3c&oe=588D6E6C

A cinema camera that does not have enough resolution to fill out a regular home tv... I don't know what to say about that.

I mix 6k weapon footage with the above and on a 4k screen it´s quite easy to see how great a 6k to UHD downscale looks compared to a 2880 upscale. But sure people like the alexa, personally I find it difficult to compare.
 
Derek Doublin said:
This is exactly what I fear if I move to Epic-W from Dragon. I'd say 70% of the music videos and commercial spots I shoot require overcranking. And, if clients request Red from this point on they're going to want the Weapon Helium, hands down. Right now, my Dragon keeps chugging along and clients are happy with it, especially since 6k R3D files can be cut very easily now without hardware acceleration. I don't even transcode anymore. I just edit the 6k source files and everything works great.

I kind of wish Red hadn't fragmented their line to this degree and pushed their top end camera into the $50k realm. If Weapon Helium sat a little closer to where Epic-W sat, they'd have my money in a heart beat. It feels like they wanted to position Weapon as close as possible to the Arri Mini in price. But I wish they'd stuck to that rebellious Red spirit and undercut them severely with their flagship camera. Most of my friends in LA sold their Dragons to purchase Arri Mini's. And those cameras do get rented out a ton. But had they been able to save $20k going to a Weapon Helium, I bet they would've done it. However, I'll be the first to admit that I am candidly spouting all this stuff out, with no real knowledge as to how much Red is spending on their backend in R & D and manufacturing. So it's probably easier said then done for Red to have just magically made the Weapon more affordable. The Weapon's current price point might be required to keep the company moving forward.

The Epic-W is clearly the result of there being such a huge gap between Red's flagship camera and the Scarlet. There are a ton of customers like me that own Dragons, would love to upgrade but just can't justify owning the Weapon. The Epic-W fills that gap. Unfortunately, it is a camera that reduces some of the functionality that we as Dragon owners have all become accustomed to. This is Red's fault for making the Dragon such a bad ass camera at such a great price! I don't want to give up those frame rates! I've even searched around for other cameras on the market and there is just no competition when it comes to frame rates and image quality. Sure the Epic-W gives you a lot more in image quality, but frame rates are a really big deal for the work I do, and they may be the one thing that keeps a Dragon in my hands right now. Perhaps I'll just keep on saving for a Helium and by the time I've got enough Red will have announced a new body with ND's.
Click to expand...

Well at 6k and under the Epic-W framerates are the same as the Weapon Helium, sure your cropping the sensor to a bit smaller then s35.
 
For me the biggest difference is the future with VV and my main reason for going with the Weapon Helium. My guess is the Weapon will become a VV only camera and the Epic-W will keep the S35 Helium. So you then have the paths to choose. S35 Helium = Epic-W vs Weapon VV at say $60k. Then the price gap makes sense.
 
Björn Benckert said:
¨

Then again how many frames can alexa mini do raw? 48?

Another thing to think about... I currently working on a alexa mini raw / cooke ana production and when image is squeezed to it´s 2880x1080 (full frame arri with ana) the image is covering a little bit more then the upper left corner on my consumer TV set.... For me to buy such camera today is nuts.

I think this image says a lot. https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=0cb36026fa02f9c01c0df839665a5b3c&oe=588D6E6C

A cinema camera that does not have enough resolution to fill out a regular home tv... I don't know what to say about that.

I mix 6k weapon footage with the above and on a 4k screen it´s quite easy to see how great a 6k to UHD downscale looks compared to a 2880 upscale. But sure people like the alexa, personally I find it difficult to compare.
Click to expand...

Bjørn I would say you are mistaken with the Alexa resolution - Anamorphic Alexa 4:3 is 2880 x 2160. - so full 4k height.
 
Sidney L. Plaut said:
Bjørn I would say you are mistaken with the Alexa resolution - Anamorphic Alexa 4:3 is 2880 x 2160. - so full 4k height.
Click to expand...

Sure then you stretch that out or squeeze it out, I think pushing the height to half / 1080 is the only way to not upscale no?
 
Björn Benckert said:
Sure then you stretch that out or squeeze it out, I think pushing the height to half / 1080 is the only way to not upscale no?
Click to expand...

The best approach is scale (5760)2880x2160 (actually cropped to 2582x2160 for 2:39:1 delivery) to 4096x1716 for DCI compliance.

In your approach you throw away vertical res...and also you should factor OLPF strength... ;)
 
Michael Matossian said:
For me the biggest difference is the future with VV and my main reason for going with the Weapon Helium. My guess is the Weapon will become a VV only camera and the Epic-W will keep the S35 Helium. So you then have the paths to choose. S35 Helium = Epic-W vs Weapon VV at say $60k. Then the price gap makes sense.
Click to expand...

I wasn't thinking of that. Definitely a good possibility to keep in mind.
 
Phil Holland said:
Two main considerations when talking Weapon 8K S35 and Epic-W is maximum data rate and maximum frame rates. Some people truly will need 8K at 60fps for instance (myself included!).

It's always good to look at everything to see the various differences between models. As usual I have a chart for such things:

http://phfx.com/tools/REDDSMC2CameraLineup/phfx_REDDSMC2OneSheet2016_big.png


Side note and on topic-ish thing. Epic Dragon and Weapon 6K S35 Dragon. Many have been working 5K-6K. 8K is indeed the new concept many are exploring. Helium sensor tech results in 7K being around Super 35mm in width, so I think for those shooting 5K say on Dragon, you may find your comfort zone around 7K Helium. Unless you're target delivery is 8K, then for sure shoot 8K.

There are notable differences between the two sensor technologies on a per format basis. Some come down to resolution and format, some come down say image texture.
Click to expand...


Phil, your charts are awesome! Thank you!
 
Derek Doublin said:
This is exactly what I fear if I move to Epic-W from Dragon. I'd say 70% of the music videos and commercial spots I shoot require overcranking. And, if clients request Red from this point on they're going to want the Weapon Helium, hands down. Right now, my Dragon keeps chugging along and clients are happy with it, especially since 6k R3D files can be cut very easily now without hardware acceleration. I don't even transcode anymore. I just edit the 6k source files and everything works great.

I kind of wish Red hadn't fragmented their line to this degree and pushed their top end camera into the $50k realm. If Weapon Helium sat a little closer to where Epic-W sat, they'd have my money in a heart beat. It feels like they wanted to position Weapon as close as possible to the Arri Mini in price. But I wish they'd stuck to that rebellious Red spirit and undercut them severely with their flagship camera. Most of my friends in LA sold their Dragons to purchase Arri Mini's. And those cameras do get rented out a ton. But had they been able to save $20k going to a Weapon Helium, I bet they would've done it. However, I'll be the first to admit that I am candidly spouting all this stuff out, with no real knowledge as to how much Red is spending on their backend in R & D and manufacturing. So it's probably easier said then done for Red to have just magically made the Weapon more affordable. The Weapon's current price point might be required to keep the company moving forward.

The Epic-W is clearly the result of there being such a huge gap between Red's flagship camera and the Scarlet. There are a ton of customers like me that own Dragons, would love to upgrade but just can't justify owning the Weapon. The Epic-W fills that gap. Unfortunately, it is a camera that reduces some of the functionality that we as Dragon owners have all become accustomed to. This is Red's fault for making the Dragon such a bad ass camera at such a great price! I don't want to give up those frame rates! I've even searched around for other cameras on the market and there is just no competition when it comes to frame rates and image quality. Sure the Epic-W gives you a lot more in image quality, but frame rates are a really big deal for the work I do, and they may be the one thing that keeps a Dragon in my hands right now. Perhaps I'll just keep on saving for a Helium and by the time I've got enough Red will have announced a new body with ND's.
Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat as you! But my Dragon was stolen a few months ago and now I have to make a purchase pretty quickly in order for my own business to keep moving forward!
 
I had my concerns but a couple of things

Firstly i guess it depends where you're shooting, in PAL land it's 25p or 24p here so 8K WS is 38fps which is off enough to make it slower. Then 7K is a bit slower too (43)

At 6K clearly that's where it happens, 100fps is no problem. And to be honest any slower than that and you're in an odd territory (for me anyway)

Then FOV depends on the lenses. I have a bunch of contax primes, with 18mm my widest but that's not ideal. I have M mount lenses down to 12 but they're not going to work (such a shame as they're so light and perfect)

But i just got the 12-24 f4 Sigma and the 24-35 f2 sigma. Both seem like awesome lenses and 12mm f4 puts me straight back into wide enough for all but weird shots.

Mind you the 12 24 is huge, wasn't expecting that.

But 6K with a combination of ultra wide lenses and i'm a happy bunny on that front.

cheers
Paul
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
The best approach is scale (5760)2880x2160 (actually cropped to 2582x2160 for 2:39:1 delivery) to 4096x1716 for DCI compliance.

In your approach you throw away vertical res...and also you should factor OLPF strength... ;)
Click to expand...

I don't see it as I throw pixels away when I downsample. As it improves noise, sharpness etc. And dubbling the horisontal pixels is quite the opposite of that. But sure if you need to make a 4096x1716 or what ever format that is bigger than what the camera can capture than thats the only way.
 
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