Was Jinnimag Thread Removed?

[Steve Wall]

I don't really see the whole thing as much as of an issue to be honest. Of course the mags are overpriced in the context of simple storage - but when you consider Redcode, and what you can get out of these cameras - it really isn't some kind of rip off. I'm happy with the value proposition of the whole system - I don't really care if the cards cost more and the camera body less. It was always pretty obvious the cost of cards wasn't from some super special magical tech.

Clearly this cost is going to be factored into the camera bodies or other products from here on in to keep all the outraged people on the internet happy. Although DSMC3 is going to have to take it up a notch beyond singular SSD to keep up with data rate + resolution i'm guessing, so we'll probably just end up getting a lot more speed for a similar price.

 

[Jeff McCoy]

The price doesn’t bother me. Happy to pay good money for good products.

That said, let’s be honest and transparent about the products being sold. To me, this is the real issue worth discussing.

 

[Misha Engel]

The price doesn’t bother me. Happy to pay good money for good products.

That said, let’s be honest and transparent about the products being sold. To me, this is the real issue worth discussing.

For me they don't even have to be transparent, just don't lie.

 

[Puven Pather]

Red Epic red mags

Red Epic red mags

So basically this is REDs way of making RED users use RED memory cards in the RED eco system. Thats fine.

But what about Red Epic MX, which is not supported by RED anymore, unless I am wrong. No repairs or firmware updates or hardware for Epics on the site indicates to me that it is out. At some point good usable used red mags are going to be hard to find.

So seeing as this is a software restriction, how about RED remove the restriction and allow Epic owners to do what they want with their media and the media we can use.

My Epic has a lot of life left in it but the Red Mag does not.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

As some one who has been the Victim of some pretty VICIOUS Cyberbullying attacks in recent years, which forced me to Delete Facebook once and for all, the main cause of this attacks...

I completely AGREE with what Phil has done, and not because he (and Jarred) where first ones to contact me to see if I was ok and trying to help when that happened to me, but because there is no other way to deal with this type of people that feel it's ok placing your personal and professional life in front of every one in the most miss guided ways.

There is a place for everything but too far is just too far.

This guy has gone too far, way too far.

Argue company policies, argue their tactics and business model, but don't attack an individual indiscriminately on the open Internet, that is unacceptable!

 

[Kyle Simukka]

So basically this is REDs way of making RED users use RED memory cards in the RED eco system. Thats fine.

But what about Red Epic MX, which is not supported by RED anymore, unless I am wrong. No repairs or firmware updates or hardware for Epics on the site indicates to me that it is out. At some point good usable used red mags are going to be hard to find.

So seeing as this is a software restriction, how about RED remove the restriction and allow Epic owners to do what they want with their media and the media we can use.

My Epic has a lot of life left in it but the Red Mag does not.

I too share this thought. Instead of throwing these perfectly working cameras away as E-Waste, I would love if RED gave us the keys to maintain these obselete cameras.

 

[C. Burkhart]

In terms of deleting a thread. It's a little bit sad. I honestly was impressed by RED that they had left it for so long. I thought, "ah, they have finally turned the corner and let the forum be an open environment". It indicated to me that they had enough self-confidence and faith in their own products to not be concerned about a less than flattering discussion. This seemed like such a change from the past and indicated maturity to me. At last the barbed wire tattoos and the macho us against the world rebellion of an adolescent organism was a thing of the past.

Truthfully, I have never loved the way in which previous generations of the camera handled skin tones, especially in tungsten or mixed light settings, but the new generation of cams and the simplified lineup felt like maturity as well. The irony is that I have the impression that major film production has moved still further away from RED, not closer. I suspect that the Venice and the latest Arri cams are behind this. It is not the failing of RED, but the advances with other manufacturer's behind this.

Lastly, what I have come to appreciate about the RED forum even if I am not in love with their cameras, is that it is by far the largest community online of truly working professionals who have depth and experience, so it is very practical once people step beyond the DSLR stage of their learning curve. The depth of knowledge and the level of sophistication has offset the annoying fanboy-ism that was so present several years ago. I appreciate that. If the Jinni story can dispel still further the glimmer glass haze in front of the fanboys, then that is not necessarily a bad thing and we can all get on with the business of just being professionals dealing with an ever changing industry.

 

[Brent G Miller Jr]

This brings up a much larger concern that no one is addressing. We shoot on RED because of the quality of the sensor and red code, but If RED is grossly lying about what’s in their memory cards, then what else are they lying about with other hardware? That’s a scary question. I have purchased 3 REDs and was planning to stay in the eco-system through DSMC3 and beyond but when I have a fortune on the line with a backlot, cast and crew to shoot, can I really trust RED that I’m using the best product for my films? Cameras are CHEAP, production is expensive! I hope this gets clarified soon because I think myself and a lot of others are looking at Arri just to get away from this mess. I want to know with CONFIDENCE what I’m shooting on... plain and simple.

 

[Andy White]

This brings up a much larger concern that no one is addressing. We shoot on RED because of the quality of the sensor and red code, but If RED is grossly lying about what’s in their memory cards, then what else are they lying about with other hardware? That’s a scary question. I have purchased 3 REDs and was planning to stay in the eco-system through DSMC3 and beyond but when I have a fortune on the line with a backlot, cast and crew to shoot, can I really trust RED that I’m using the best product for my films? Cameras are CHEAP, production is expensive! I hope this gets clarified soon because I think myself and a lot of others are looking at Arri just to get away from this mess. I want to know with CONFIDENCE what I’m shooting on... plain and simple.

I replied to your new thread - but saw this and thought I'd reply also

The existence of the Panavision DXL pretty much gives you an industry perspective (I doubt Panavision would be involved with RED if there were any issues, as you allude to, as I mentioned in my other reply).

But ultimately, I suppose it comes down to what gives you confidence. The Red Raw system (based, way back I believe, on Wavelet style compression) really was a breakthrough and this dragged ARRI and Sony into 4K (and beyond) - this is a point that really can't be understated.

 

[Brent G Miller Jr]

I replied to your new thread - but saw this and thought I'd reply also

The existence of the Panavision DXL pretty much gives you an industry perspective (I doubt Panavision would be involved with RED if there were any issues, as you allude to, as I mentioned in my other reply).

But ultimately, I suppose it comes down to what gives you confidence. The Red Raw system (based, way back I believe, on Wavelet style compression) really was a breakthrough and this dragged ARRI and Sony into 4K (and beyond) - this is a point that really can't be understated.

Very valid points. Thank you very much for the insight. My concern was always that we’re shooting on what you think you’re shooting on. I 100% support price gauging on proprietary ecosystems so if RED wants to keep charging $3K for each monitor and memory card then GREAT, I’ll keep buying them. But I genuinely hope they stop the blatant lying - saying it’s something that it isn’t hurts ones reputation in permanent ways . That should concern all of us fans.

 

[jake blackstone]

The Red Raw system (based, way back I believe, on Wavelet style compression) really was a breakthrough and this dragged ARRI and Sony into 4K (and beyond) - this is a point that really can't be understated.

Actually, as I understand it, the first camera using compressed RAW (Cineform) codec was Silicon Imaging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Imaging
The first 4k digital camera was Dalsa Origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalsa_Origin
And R3D is based on existing JPEG2000 wavelet compression. It was readily apparent until Red started encrypting R3Ds.
So, basically, Red combined all three elements together, patented it, which became the basis of Red cameras.
So, I don't think, there was a technological breakthrough. It was probably a breakthrough more on the engineering and PR front.

 

[AJ Aguirre]

LOUD NOISES

Calm your tits everyone, I promise every single one of you is going to be okay after this.

We would just now be leaving a 1080p world if it weren't for RED and mayyyyybe 4k cameras would be under 100k by now.

Jesus christ. Big picture.

 

[AJ Aguirre]

Outrage Culture is so hot right now


https://zippy.gfycat.com/PalatableSecondAsiaticlesserfreshwaterclam.mp4

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

LOUD NOISES

Calm your tits everyone, I promise every single one of you is going to be okay after this.

We would just now be leaving a 1080p world if it weren't for RED and mayyyyybe 4k cameras would be under 100k by now.

Jesus christ. Big picture.

AJ has spoken. Go home everyone.

Like Leslie Nielsen outside the flaming fireworks factory. Nothing to see here.

 

[AJ Aguirre]

AJ has spoken. Go home everyone.

Like Leslie Nielsen outside the flaming fireworks factory. Nothing to see here.

It just absolutely OUTRAGES me that the people behind RED have made a mistake, when they NEED to be PERFECT, otherwise what the heck do they think they're doing running a company?!?!


We should all band together and have them overthrown and install our own people who are more better, more stronger, more smarter.


I elect myself. Am suber staple genius.

 

[Phil Holland]

Actually, as I understand it, the first camera using compressed RAW (Cineform) codec was Silicon Imaging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Imaging
The first 4k digital camera was Dalsa Origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalsa_Origin
And R3D is based on existing JPEG2000 wavelet compression. It was readily apparent until Red started encrypting R3Ds.
So, basically, Red combined all three elements together, patented it, which became the basis of Red cameras.
So, I don't think, there was a technological breakthrough. It was probably a breakthrough more on the engineering and PR front.

Historically correct as to the emerging technologies, but outside of engineering, combining methods, and marketing; look closer at the development of the entire ecosystem and workflow as well as actually being able to manufacture cameras in the quantities we're at these days. Also back for the bulk of the 2000s in general all of the digital cinema cameras had major overheating and technical related issues, but it was extremely clear the power and desired for these style of cameras to evolve. Reliability was a much bigger issue than it is today, though still possibly one of the most relevant selling points and features.

As to what became eventually the RED One and the SI-2K dropping happened fairly close together about a year apart if I remember correctly via NAB timelines.

The Origin was way, way ahead of it's time in 2003/2004 with it's 2:1 DCI 4K width sensor, but was a real tricky mistress to work with practically. It was a sad day when Dalsa shuttered it's doors in Woodland Hills. Two filmmakers here on the forum have some of the Dalsa Leica-R rehoused glass, initially those sets were being sold for nearly nothing when Dalsa closed.

Either way, the history paved the road to what digital cinema cameras have become. Arri's big efforts were in the mid 2000s to come up with a system to compliment the then very standard 2K delivery workflow with the D20, D21 (the first ARRIRAW camera), and what became known as the Alexa, all happening basically within a span of 4-5 years all built on the same general sensor concept and of course they've now jumped into the realm of 4K with the LF. Sony very much caught on to 4K and makes a whole bunch of decent options, a good while back and I'll have to dig it up the photo of the slideshow, the initial roadmap for Sony to make 4K cameras was 2015. Things obviously moved at an accelerated rate to the 2011 timeline very likely due to RED's impact on the market.

From my perspective, somewhere between what we were doing with film scanning and laser recording (2K/4K/6K/8K) and what was happening on the digital cinema side of things (2K/HD Genesis, Viper, 2.8K D20) around the era; there was a clear gap to jump into the market and make cameras alluring for filmmakers.

One key thing that is really notable, was RED was pretty much the first modular camera (DSMC Epic 2009) on the market and pushing the downsampling workflow much like the traditional film scanning workflow for the image quality benefits. At the same time I think they were really the first to more or less to be a multi-format/multi-resolution system as part of the inherit camera design, though reframing and cropping was common, RED's efforts allowed for higher speed frame rates as you "windowed down" on the sensor. That is now commonplace on the major cameras.

Clearly the Panasonic HVX200 and likely DVX100 should be mentioned. The former having solid state media though a wacky 960x540 chip resolution which then created they interpolated 1080p output. Ground breaking camera with a horrible response to anything blue in color, but truly innovative and a great followup to the DV based DVX100. Also a frustrating workflow for about 1.5 years on the Windows side of things using the bloody Raylight Codec thingy to even get an NLE to work with the footage. A lot of people don't remember that back then a new codec would come out and it took about 6 heartbeats for any NLE to support it. Still tricky crap these days, but far improved.


It's truly interesting what's happened from there to where we are now. Not just on a camera side, but also on a display side of things. Mid-2000s 4K TVs nor streaming weren't close to a thing in reality, they were being developed, but far from available for typical consumers. Now around the end of 2019 about 50% of US homes will have UHD 4K televisions and nearly every current and upcoming streaming service is focused on 4K delivery for their content.

Not to mention the industry has grown about 1500X to what it was and broadened out into new tiers with the availability of DSLRs (now mirrorless bodies too) that could shoot video. Somewhere between that and REDs getting out there in massive quantities created a new market for cinema lenses or lenses that would be more ideal for motion picture use, which is another market that literally was absent considering the few lens manufacturers even making cinema glass at the time were focused on the around $15K and up per lens market, which certainly opened a door for the early days of the Zeiss CPs, Canon CN-Es, and Schneider Xenon FF-Primes. Also it put a new light on modifying lenses for motion picture use, i.e. Cine-Mod, as well as rehousing which was common from some companies especially on more specialized focal lengths. Now everybody and their brother's ex wife's 3rd cousin is making glass. Which is fine from my perspective. Options are good when it comes to creative tools that have a major impact on the visuals. This new dynamic opened up new worlds in terms of production budgets, schedules, and expectations over the original land of clear divide between film and video, which led to a still notably divide between digital cinema and video, and whatever is going on with that, here we are.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Overplayed?

Overplayed?

For starters, if RedMags were less than 99.8% reliable, it would have been a PR nightmare 50 times larger than the current kerfuffle. So they invested in engineering the most bulletproof media they could. Perhaps, in hindsight, it was overkill - but, as both a user and evangelist for RED, reliable media is a must.

To me, the real issue is why such a huge markup? Even at 50% of what RED was asking they would likely have been able to cover costs and make a solid margin. If you're calling out RED for gouging, I agree with other posters that the value proposition of the entire camera system is solid. Don't agree? Plenty of other options out there...

Perhaps more critical to this community is the credibility of the RedTeam. I have little doubt that RED did, in fact, spend some serious coin developing RedMags. OTOH, the per unit expense of that NRE, spread over thousands of mags, can't fully explain the pricing. From the outside, it seems like RED overplayed the R&D card when responding to criticism of the cost of the mags. In a perfect world, a more nuanced stance would have been to cite both the dev costs and cop to RedMags being a bit of a cash cow. Just frame the extra income as necessary to fund further development, like DSMC3...

Personal attacks - just don't. (BTW, criticizing how this issue was handled by noting that other threads have included some personal animus is weak sauce.)

Cheers - #19

 

[Andy White]

Actually, as I understand it, the first camera using compressed RAW (Cineform) codec was Silicon Imaging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Imaging
The first 4k digital camera was Dalsa Origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalsa_Origin
And R3D is based on existing JPEG2000 wavelet compression. It was readily apparent until Red started encrypting R3Ds.
So, basically, Red combined all three elements together, patented it, which became the basis of Red cameras.
So, I don't think, there was a technological breakthrough. It was probably a breakthrough more on the engineering and PR front.

Good points

I remember using a DPS I/O card back in 94/96 that was Wavelet based - and it was so much better than the standards that were being pushed by Avid (for broadcast) at the time.

 

[Remington Chase]

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...rtner-for-its-smartphone-failures/?comments=1

 

[Ash Worth]

So they invested in engineering the most bulletproof media they could. Perhaps, in hindsight, it was overkill - but, as both a user and evangelist for RED, reliable media is a must.

I have little doubt that RED did, in fact, spend some serious coin developing RedMags.

Not sure I follow what you are saying. Isn't the whole issue they just rehoused SSD's and not even the best rated ones? Where is the engineering in that? In terms of the money spent to develop the RedMags? You mean the enclosure? That's very little design.