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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

WARNING: NON CINEMA LENSES BREATHE!

All Still glass breathe, some less or more then others, some Cine lenses breathe too, especially the older ones such as the Super speeds, and others, amongst the Cine lenses the only two so far that have no feasible Breathing are the Master Primes, and the Leica S. Cine Primes, even Cooke have minor breathing, no matter how little they do breathe, doesn't mater what any one says, MP's and Leica Cine are the only ones so far to ensure NO breathing, which even so they do also breathe, but they do so in such way that it is almost impossible to see, for this they are Virtually with no Breathing!
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
All Still glass breathe, some less or more then others, some Cine lenses breathe too, especially the older ones such as the Super speeds, and others, amongst the Cine lenses the only two so far that have no feasible Breathing are the Master Primes, and the Leica S. Cine Primes, even Cooke have minor breathing, no matter how little they do breathe, doesn't mater what any one says, MP's and Leica Cine are the only ones so far to ensure NO breathing, which even so they do also breathe, but they do so in such way that it is almost impossible to see, for this they are Virtually with no Breathing!
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Thanks, Ketch!!!!
 
Wait, I'd like to clear up some confusion.

Breathing is when you focus a lens and the image moves as if a small zoom is occurring.

Telescoping is what happens when a lens does not internally focus, meaning the lens will physically get longer or contract depending on the focusing direction.

A lens can do both, but sometimes people call telescoping, breathing, and it's confusing.

Can you clarify? Sounds like telescoping is your issue, along with perhaps some slop that is causing image shift upon gear direction change, and even perhaps breathing as well...

Modern Cine lenses breath very little or almost not at all. Modern cine lenses don't telescope though (unless schneider cine xenars series 1)... as they all internally focus. Cookes, MP's, UP's, CP's, etc.
 
There's some very pronounced breathing in Django Unchained, but as usual Tarantino knows where what thing works best in cinema and I thought the effect was quite poetic for the application.

If you're applying any sort of budget you'll get landed with some compromising effects but art generally benefits from a choice set of limits. As others have said above, if you motivate the camera effects with story and character movements people won't even notice, like whip panning over matted-out light stands.
 
The RPP's are big and heavy, but the lowest price lenses I've ever seen with virtually no breathing. I was amazed when I first used them. Still lenses are not ideal for most difficult follow focus work due to the short travel of the barrel rotation. The Canon 70-200 was killing me one day at F.8 and a following a three step walk as the barrel rotation was a fraction of a millimeter. Would have been easy at 2.8 on a cinema lens.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Wait, I'd like to clear up some confusion.

Breathing is when you focus a lens and the image moves, as if a small zoom is occurring.

Telescoping is what happens when a lens does not internally focus, meaning the lens will get longer or contract depending on the focusing direction.

A lens can do both, but sometimes people call telescoping, breathing, and it's confusing.

Can you clarify? Sounds like telescoping is your issue, along with perhaps some slop that is causing image shift upon gear direction change, and even perhaps breathing as well...

Modern Cine lenses breath very little or almost not at all. Modern cine lenses don't telescope though (unless schneider cine xenars series 1)... as they all internally focus. Cookes, MP's, UP's, CP's, etc.
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THanks, Ryan..I think we are dealing with both! :)
 
Lockcircle have a mattebox that's designed for stillsglass, it's a clamp-on that moves with the lens. I heaven't tried it but it might be worth looking into. If telescoping is an issue.
 
This does alleviate some weight off the lens but trust me, you will be doing harm to the lens in the long run.

Stefan Viklund said:
Lockcircle have a mattebox that's designed for stillsglass, it's a clamp-on that moves with the lens. I heaven't tried it but it might be worth looking into. If telescoping is an issue.
Click to expand...
 
Bob Gundu said:
This does alleviate some weight off the lens but trust me, you will be doing harm to the lens in the long run.
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I agree. Avoid clamp-on matte boxes with still lenses. Use a proper mattebox with the flexi donuts or use screw-in filters with french flags to control flares.
 
I think there's some confusion here (maybe this was already discussed earlier in the thread). I hear it every day: someone says that their lens breathes and they don't like it. Half the time they are talking about the apparent change in field of view caused by focusing a lens. A visual "breathing" of sorts. And the other half are referring to the physical size or shape of the lens changing as they rack focus or zoom. "Breathing" in the world of cinema optics is the former, when the apparent field of view increases and decreases in accordance to focus distance. It's an optical mechanical flaw that most modern cinema lens designs take into consideration and correct for. The latter, when the front of the lens moves in and out when you rack focus, is what we refer to as non-constant-volume. It's a simple mechanical design flaw. For example, the older Angenieux 25-250mm T3.9 not only changes volume or "telescopes" when you rack focus, but the front barrel also rotates along with focus. Not a deal breaker but certainly a bummer like the OP notes. IN contrast, the Angenieux 25-250mm HR T3.5 has a VERY similar design but has an extra housing at the very front that encapsulates the portion that moves and rotates with a stationary housing. So to sum up, "breathing" is an optical characteristic, not the "telescoping" mentioned here. While the Contax lenses originally mentioned do breathe, it's not the breathing that was the killer for the OP.

My suggestion, if the telescoping fronts are unusable in your particular scenario, is to try different setups. If the lenses were well maintained and in good condition, the lubrication should provide a clean, smooth focus pull without a matte box. If you need a matte box, consider mounting it to a set of rods and using a bellows or (nuns nickers for the Brits) that spans the gap between the lens and matte box. This takes all the weight and stress off of the front of the lens and allows the barrel to telescope freely and easily.
 
This is where REd's meta data would come handy.... Since the only lenses that does not breath at all is the lenses that can provide data for focus that later can be used in post to counter breath the lens. When that's done proper a focus pull looks really sick. We got that to work so well so we had to take it down a notch since no breathing at all actually looks quite unatural. When using programable focus it's actually quite easy, usually it's enough to plug the focus curve into the parameter for image size negate the curve and scale it to taste. Wish Red went forward with the meta stuff, For VFX it would be a big push forward.
 
BRANDON JAMESON said:
Yes Adrian, we sure did.

The work was done in Korea, cost a great deal of money and took a few months to complete the first round.

We have 5 of them here and 5 are in the process of re-housing.

Obviously, I don't recommend it , but that's my OPO. :)
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Hmmm... There are a plethora of issues involved when custom lens rehousing work is done. I don't necessarily want to put you on the spot as I can feel your frustration but any additional details you'd be willing to share would be greatly beneficial to the community. (Business name and contact in Korea, approx cost to rehouse each lens, any other mechanical observations, and any pictures of the work)
 
all lenses breathe, stills a bit more than most, but about the same as any older cooke or angeniuex zoom, master primes and lieca breathe the least.
it should not be so bad that your shot is completely ruined, but i have to say i have one lomo lens, rehoused in korea, bought on ebay and i started to notice a huge shift in the frame when an extreme focus change happened, i brought it to a lens expert and they said, "its this cheap housing, something internally is not lining up" the only suggestion was to send it back, but the lens is too cheap to warrant the costs.
so it sounds like something as extreme as you are talking about might be a housing issue, does your other lenses do the same thing and as bad?
i wonder if you should find the same focal length lens, not rehoused and test them against each other.
also, spending that much on lenses you should have a proper matte box on rails, with a 10 dollar donut from film tools.
 
Björn Benckert said:
This is where REd's meta data would come handy.... Since the only lenses that does not breath at all is the lenses that can provide data for focus that later can be used in post to counter breath the lens. When that's done proper a focus pull looks really sick. We got that to work so well so we had to take it down a notch since no breathing at all actually looks quite unatural. When using programable focus it's actually quite easy, usually it's enough to plug the focus curve into the parameter for image size negate the curve and scale it to taste. Wish Red went forward with the meta stuff, For VFX it would be a big push forward.
Click to expand...

Ya, that's for sure Bjorn. When that comes out, we can just have a node that is "breathing" with a few lens type property, to remove breathing.

Brandon, to save a shot with breathing, just tell your after effects or nuke guy to key [edit as to Bob's comment - key framing]the shot for constant edges (only takes about 20 seconds on a locked shot, bit longer on hand held). Basically in AE you just key the size of the layer so the edge point objects are constantly on the edge (you normally loose about 5% of the frame).
 
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jordan levy said:
all lenses breathe, stills a bit more than most, but about the same as any older cooke or angeniuex zoom, master primes and lieca breathe the least.
it should not be so bad that your shot is completely ruined, but i have to say i have one lomo lens, rehoused in korea, bought on ebay and i started to notice a huge shift in the frame when an extreme focus change happened, i brought it to a lens expert and they said, "its this cheap housing, something internally is not lining up" the only suggestion was to send it back, but the lens is too cheap to warrant the costs.
so it sounds like something as extreme as you are talking about might be a housing issue, does your other lenses do the same thing and as bad?
i wonder if you should find the same focal length lens, not rehoused and test them against each other.
also, spending that much on lenses you should have a proper matte box on rails, with a 10 dollar donut from film tools.
Click to expand...



Jordan, maybe it IS the same guy.
Could your lens expert do anything to help?
 
I seem to remember my 18-100 hardly breathed.

Panchros did a little. Fujinon i have now hardly does, but there is a tiny bit.

Masters can breathe depending on the Focal length. 25mm comes to mind as breathing the most in the MP line. Ketch?
 
PatrickFaith said:
Brandon, to save a shot with breathing, just tell your after effects or nuke guy to key the shot for constant edges (only takes about 20 seconds on a locked shot, bit longer on hand held). Basically in AE you just key the size of the layer so the edge point objects are constantly on the edge (you normally loose about 5% of the frame).
Click to expand...

Thanks, Patrick!
 
Just so everyone else is clear, Patrick is talking about keyframing a scale and not keying :)

PatrickFaith said:
Ya, that's for sure Bjorn. When that comes out, we can just have a node that is "breathing" with a few lens type property, to remove breathing.

Brandon, to save a shot with breathing, just tell your after effects or nuke guy to key the shot for constant edges (only takes about 20 seconds on a locked shot, bit longer on hand held). Basically in AE you just key the size of the layer so the edge point objects are constantly on the edge (you normally loose about 5% of the frame).
Click to expand...
 
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