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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Vista Vision Update.

Hi Michel,

well I don't have a Helium yet... (have been editing a lot of helium...) On the VistaVision - it's the use of full frame glass on the large sensor that stands out - been shooting a lot of super wides (11mm to 28mm range) - so you on the VV are actually working slightly wider with the VV sized sensor over 35mm full frame and way wider than s35.. and on the longer lenses your using more of the full width of the glass as it was intended in it's design... the VV being a Dragon sensor with a lot more on board computing power and the new firmware allows a lot of latitude over the Epic/Dragon and again a slightly different feel than the Helium.. I'm an old school guy who likes large format and the VistaVision gets into that realm of visual subtleties... so glass/sensor combo.

I don't yet have my VV, but there's some pretty powerful math to explain the above. If you have seen an MTF chart showing 10 lp/mm and 30 lp/mm, you've probably noticed that there can be a big difference between the %MTF of the former vs. the latter. Most lens manufacturers don't publish 22.5 lp/mm and 40 lp/mm, but for sake of argument, imagine that the 22.5 lp/mm value is approximately half-way between the 10 and the 30 values, all the way from center to edge. Similarly, imagine that the 40 lp/mm value is then again as much of a percentage drop from 30 lp/mm to 40 lp/mm as when going from 10 lp/mm to 30 lp/mm. Clearly, any lens that starts to fall apart at 30 lp/mm is going to really fall apart at 40 lp/mm.

Going from S35 to VV means that if you rely on the 30 lp/mm values for getting the sharpness you want on your S35 platform means you actually get the MTF of the 22.5 lp/mm value (though, on the flipside, if things are all sharp in the middle but fall apart toward the edges, that trade may be neutralized toward the edges). Or, if you are over-stressing your lenses, peeping pixels at 40 lp/mm, the switch to VV means you are back on the manufacturers much happier 30 lp/mm performance curve.
 
Admittedly I canceled my VV order after buying a stormtrooper, which was a tough decision, but I've been so incredibly happy with Helium. I am VERY interested in this sensor swap plan I'm hearing about... maybe I can get back in line for VV one day.
 
Hi Michel,

well I don't have a Helium yet... (have been editing a lot of helium...) On the VistaVision - it's the use of full frame glass on the large sensor that stands out - been shooting a lot of super wides (11mm to 28mm range) - so you on the VV are actually working slightly wider with the VV sized sensor over 35mm full frame and way wider than s35.. and on the longer lenses your using more of the full width of the glass as it was intended in it's design... the VV being a Dragon sensor with a lot more on board computing power and the new firmware allows a lot of latitude over the Epic/Dragon and again a slightly different feel than the Helium.. I'm an old school guy who likes large format and the VistaVision gets into that realm of visual subtleties... so glass/sensor combo.

+1

+1000

That's where my heart really is too. Really interested in what Vista Vision brings; (that's amazing 11 to 28mm range) I know this is a smidge 'Off Topic" what lenses are you using? For our applications I find soooooooooo HARD to go small format and really super short (squirrelly) focal lengths... Really hard for me to not dig my heels in on that coming from medium and large and very large format. @Clark have you posted shots of Vista Vision with the 11 to 28 mm range you are talking about?

Big Cheers,

D'oh ... I guess I should look over again more carefully your Mammoth thread ! :-) BTW your macro stuff is incredible/extension tubes.
 
Eric - I'm been working with Stacey Spear's VistaVision for a few months on a special project for his upcoming Color Science tools for display - so I've been working on studio and location - natural light and a variety of lighting systems (LED, Tungstem, flashlights, etc) - the lenses I've been shooting with range from the 11mm to 600mm+ and a lot of macro/closeups: Zeiss Otus & Milvius, Canon zooms and macros, Nikon and Sigma... several of the frame grabs have been posted in the RED Collective Thread on MammothHD (RED Collective#6 -> http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?120953-RED-Collective-%96-Mammoth-HD - starting on page 12 of the thread with post#119 - I start showing a lot of VistaVision frame grabs as the project progresses thru this last month - later this afternoon I'll be adding a few from this weeks Raptors in the Studio series.

MHD_rCD8_vRaptorSS_04x1.jpg
 
Eric - I'm been working with Stacey Spear's VistaVision for a few months on a special project for his upcoming Color Science tools for display - so I've been working on studio and location - natural light and a variety of lighting systems (LED, Tungstem, flashlights, etc) - the lenses I've been shooting with range from the 11mm to 600mm+ and a lot of macro/closeups: Zeiss Otus & Milvius, Canon zooms and macros, Nikon and Sigma... several of the frame grabs have been posted in the RED Collective Thread on MammothHD (RED Collective#6 -> http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?120953-RED-Collective-%96-Mammoth-HD - starting on page 12 of the thread with post#119 - I start showing a lot of VistaVision frame grabs as the project progresses thru this last month - later this afternoon I'll be adding a few from this weeks Raptors in the Studio series.

MHD_rCD8_vRaptorSS_04x1.jpg

"Color science tools for display" project. No doubt extremely worth while and important. Great mix of lenses... [I love some of the Schneider glass for our weird applications (geometry/low distortion and good MTFs) ], but some of those Zeiss Otus and Milvius optical layouts and aspheric elements and special glass formulations certainly have a lot going on there... Where you have to SEE the imagery rather than look at a bunch of plots and data etc.] Sounds like what you are pulling together is very meaningful and super useful too.]. Wonderful subject matter to show what a VV (based sensor) can do as other wise those would be very challenging subjects by any other means (just about).

Can't wait to see all the results... AMAZING!

Thanks for sharing :-)
 
This is great news J

I will get my order in and hope that perhaps this yield continues and I can upgrade in early 2018
 
Just done the test for my buddy Anthony Pun's up coming feature film project,
both used Cooke 2x anamorphic prime lens with Weapon 8K VV Anamorphic and Weapon S35 8K at Red Beijing, China office last week,
Weapon VV Anamorphic just too Amazing, wish to upgrade sooner...
 

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So am I missing something or is this video out of date?


BrainBox saying that the Helium is the "future of RED" and that the VV is based on older Dragon architecture. Tru?
 
Is there a published document that describes:
1) Specs of RED VV cameras/sensors
2) Upgrade paths to VV for existing RED Weapon Mg Owners?

Thanks, Eric

1) http://www.red.com/products/weapon-8k#tech-specs

2) Have to go from WEAPON Mg to WEAPON CF to be VV compatible. Current upgrade paths for WEAPON Mg are here.

A lot of answers can be found in RED.com...

So am I missing something or is this video out of date?


BrainBox saying that the Helium is the "future of RED" and that the VV is based on older Dragon architecture. Tru?

Chronologically, DRAGON came before HELIUM. Don't think that is any secret...
 
Chronologically, DRAGON came before HELIUM. Don't think that is any secret...

Thanks Brent! Just trying to understand the best upgrade path economically. Please someone smarter than me (should not be a problem) help me understand the best economic path.

Seems like the Epic-W 8K Helium is currently the best price/performance value. But that does not include the "premium upgrade path to VV" which requires the Weapon Helium. So . . . is the VV a way better sensor considering there is going to be a double upgrade from Dragon 6K to VV?

Going from Dragon to Epic-W Helium 8K is only $15K. Add another $20K to that to get to Weapon Helium for incremental frame rate performance increase (if I'm reading the specs correctly). Then from there I don't see a published upgrade path / cost to get to VV from Epic-W. Would be cool to have that spelled out before the September 28th deadline.

If BrainBox is current and correct, wouldn't the most economical move be to sit tight at the Epic-W level for now until more VV upgrade details are available? Someone like Clark Dunbar who has used the VV and Helium extensively would be valuable in helping us understand the performance and aesthetic differences between sensors perhaps.
 
Thanks Brent! Just trying to understand the best upgrade path economically. Please someone smarter than me (should not be a problem) help me understand the best economic path.

Seems like the Epic-W 8K Helium is currently the best price/performance value. But that does not include the "premium upgrade path to VV" which requires the Weapon Helium. So . . . is the VV a way better sensor considering there is going to be a double upgrade from Dragon 6K to VV?

Going from Dragon to Epic-W Helium 8K is only $15K. Add another $20K to that to get to Weapon Helium for incremental frame rate performance increase (if I'm reading the specs correctly). Then from there I don't see a published upgrade path / cost to get to VV from Epic-W. Would be cool to have that spelled out before the September 28th deadline.

If BrainBox is current and correct, wouldn't the most economical move be to sit tight at the Epic-W level for now until more VV upgrade details are available? Someone like Clark Dunbar who has used the VV and Helium extensively would be valuable in helping us understand the performance and aesthetic differences between sensors perhaps.

All fair and good, my friend. There are a lot of paths, yes. And I/we cannot say what is the right choice for each person. All I can say is that Sep 28 is the last chance for folks to move from DSMC1 to DSMC2. If you are already DSMC2, say EPIC-W, you will have a path to WEAPON after that date. And EPIC-W is certainly no slouch in of itself.
 
2) Have to go from WEAPON Mg to WEAPON CF to be VV compatible. Current upgrade paths for WEAPON Mg are here.

A lot of answers can be found in RED.com...

I just want to clarify - just because the Weapon 8K s35 is made with CF, that actually differs from the listed Weapon CF with the Dragon sensor, correct? Sorry, I'm just a bit confused in that regard about materials and innards!
 
I just want to clarify - just because the Weapon 8K s35 is made with CF, that actually differs from the listed Weapon CF with the Dragon sensor, correct? Sorry, I'm just a bit confused.

If you have a CF WEAPON - be it 6K DRAGON or 8K HELIUM, you are VV compatible.
 
Can magnesium go to carbon weapon (dragon) instead of weapon helium for the same price pre-sept 28?
 
Upgrade paths needs a Phil Holland chart ;-)
 
1) http://www.red.com/products/weapon-8k#tech-specs

2) Have to go from WEAPON Mg to WEAPON CF to be VV compatible. Current upgrade paths for WEAPON Mg are here.

A lot of answers can be found in RED.com...



Chronologically, DRAGON came before HELIUM. Don't think that is any secret...

Thanks. When you say "Weapon CF" do you mean Weapon 8K Helium?

So there will NOT be an upgrade path from Weapon Mg to VV???

Are there published specs for the VV sensor/camera?
 
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