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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

VFS Inclino, Imperio, Origo News ??

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Rowland Kirishima said:
50feet is probably more than enough for steadicam and crane work. I don't know about other people, but I'm fine with that spec. I'll rather have the units quickly because I have a movie shoot coming late March...

Shotaro Kirishima
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Jay A. Kelley said:
I think you are good with this Curt.. I'd go with it.

Jay
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Crazy talk :wink:

Guys think practically. A normal crane is 30ft - that leaves the AC 20ft to play with. Normally he'd like to step out so he can see the height of the arm as it's moving. Now what happens when you go out with the beasts.

If the range of these little puppies is only approx 50ft I will cancel my 3 full set units ordered in a heart beat and buy myself an ARRI or C-motion. No offense Curt but it would be to short range in the long run.

My vote is for making sure this will last.
 
Close... we're getting there...

Congrats !

I'm looking forward to using my Impero-Inclino combo.

As to the 50-60 feet range, that is in open air ? It is not very much. How about inside, with thin walls, down corridors, etc. How does it perform ?

I also think 50 to 60 feet is not enough.

Cheers,
Damien
 
If you're on a crane, you can always go with a cable connection.
 
weirdcrew said:
Hahahahaha I knew someone would mention that.
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Glad you took it in good humour Fredrick!

So what's the real world range of Arri or C-Motion?
 
The crane example was just an example. 50ft is to short for all different kind of tasks. Sure most of the time it's fine but it's about the 15% when it's not.

And I don't won't to hardwire for a crane. The less distractions for my AC and the possibility to place himself anywhere is important.

If this unit has a 50ft range it becomes the low budget version that the price implies. That's fine with me, but have we waited so long and has the guys worked so hard for it to be just that?
 
CVB said:
Now for an update.... the new BT radios came in yesterday. We assembled about 60 units and have some findings to report. The range of the radios in open air (ie, no enclosure, PCB, hands, bodies, cars, walls, large trees, 1 meter thick concrete walls etc) is documented to be 100 meters... which we did verify. The problem is that it is not realistic to get that performance once things are packaged up and held in you hand or on a camera. After we put everything together we have found that the actual range is around 50-60 feet for reliable operation. There are ways to increase the range, namely throttling back on the refresh rate of the motor positioning. We are also experimenting with a couple tweaks to the Bluetooth carrier boards which seem to help quite a bit with the range.... it turns out that cutting away the FR4 pcb material with a laser and removing the material underneath the antenna helped quite a bit. I am going to keep messing around with some other options through the night but maybe you guys can weigh in on your thoughts as to if we should ship with the 50-60' operating range.QUOTE]
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Of course more range would be great. What's the real world range of Arri or C-Motion?
 
Well Curt, despite Fredrik's valid points to the contrary, I'm good with 50 feet. More would be nicer, but if everything else works as well as it sounds, then I'd be satisfied.

Sure, take a few days to see what reasonable modifications you can make to increase that distance, but if it's another major time-consuming ordeal and expense, I'd say move forward.
 
I feel about the same as jimarri... But take a few days to see what can be done, even consider different BT modules. Fredrik makes valid points and I'm inclined to agree there too. I'm curious to know how the modules perform in situations where it's not wide open. How do they perform when the camera is on the other side of a wall or in a hallway.

Of course I'm just speculating here based on what has transpired in this thread, but I fear you guys may have engineered yourselves into a corner with this one. If I recall, part of why you had to change wireless modules was to get the modules' power requirements to your intended spec. But this could be a determining factor as to just what sort of range is ultimately available.

I can't comment on the C-Motion, but real-world range of the Arri is more like 75-85ft in the open, if I recall from playing with the one I rented last year. And it works just fine with the camera on the other side of a wall viewed through a window or on a monitor. Another place that wireless communications can really suffer is inside metal buildings or warehouse, trendy-restaurant type spaces with exposed beams and trusses or other steel surfaces that can cause stronger reflections or other means of interference.
 
I somewhat agree with Fredrik on this. 50-60 ft is a little low for my taste. My concern is also how this thing will work when in a building or a couple of rooms away from the camera. I know the plastic shells are already made but would it be possible (with a bit of skills and engineering) to make an external antenna to boost range? I'd be happy to make that mod myself in order to get the stuff here sooner :)
 
Forgive my ignorance but, how far away can you guys get a monitor?
Aren't you wired to it?

In other words if you have to be wired to monitor with what your doing then what's the big deal with a wire to the FF?
Not trying to be contrary here, just trying to get educated.

Greg
 
Gregory Leno said:
Forgive my ignorance but, how far away can you guys get a monitor?
Aren't you wired to it?
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Yes, wired most of the time. And we have to be sensible in our wireless requests here too. The camera still needs to be tethered in some way in most situations if it's on a crane. It's possible to monitor wirelessly, but run/stop and other camera triggers are still wired (for now) unless we use something like the Impero and a motor to rig up a plunger to push power and/or record buttons.

If the 50/60 feet is the best we can do, I'll accept it. This whole saga has run its course and perhaps we can look to longer-range solutions with more control features for the "Impero Pro" that was mentioned once upon a time, log ago...

As for distances for a monitor when wired, it can travel quite far -- I can stretch HD-SDI (single link) to about 1200ft with a proper booster or repeater. 720p HDMI can do about 600ft with a decent set of CAT-5/6 baluns. 1080p HDMI is about 300ft. Wireless HD transmission is expensive and once again the range is not all that great unless we spend lots of money. Even then, we're introducing lots of compression and other issues.

In other words if you have to be wired to monitor with what your doing then what's the big deal with a wire to the FF?
Not trying to be contrary here, just trying to get educated.
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Perfectly valid point, IMO. I have a 35ft cable for my Origo, so I most likely won't be any farther away than that. And if it's already wired, then it's no big deal to also wire the Impero. I won't wire the Impero if I'm in range, just because of that extra bit of freedom.

So all things considered, if 50/60 feet is the best we can do without another re-design, then I'm OK with that. But if we can work in an external antenna that sticks up like a 3/4" nub on the top back or something, and gives us another 20ft, then let's do that.
 
If Curt can improve it slightly better, it will be fine. But i also feel 50/60 is low, should be higher. What do you think Curt ? Anything can be done to improve the gear ?
 
I'm happy with 50 feet, but for my 2 cents Curt, I suggest you get the product the way you would want it and the way you're happy with it.

(they sent me over here from the birger queue)
 
50 feet is fine with me...

any minor thing to improve range may be worth it....but 50 feet is acceptable for me
 
50 feet is very poor and I can only guess not usable in non "open air" situations
We've waited so long I'd rather we receive a tool that works in the real world.

I want a tool not a toy.
 
I don't want to offend any of the people who say otherwise, but 50-60 feet is not sufficient. I know that most units can go up to at least 100 feet. Those who have already ordered their units are not thinking clearly because they just want their units now. It's like victims of a crime not being reliable witnesses because they're not thinking straight. You should listen to impartial professionals on this Curt. Take the time to increase the range. If your specs are sub-par it can definitely hurt sales. You have to think about yourself and View Factor on this one Curt.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Of course I'm just speculating here based on what has transpired in this thread, but I fear you guys may have engineered yourselves into a corner with this one. If I recall, part of why you had to change wireless modules was to get the modules' power requirements to your intended spec. But this could be a determining factor as to just what sort of range is ultimately available.

I can't comment on the C-Motion, but real-world range of the Arri is more like 75-85ft in the open, if I recall from playing with the one I rented last year. And it works just fine with the camera on the other side of a wall viewed through a window or on a monitor. Another place that wireless communications can really suffer is inside metal buildings or warehouse, trendy-restaurant type spaces with exposed beams and trusses or other steel surfaces that can cause stronger reflections or other means of interference.
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The original design followed all the recommendations from Digi (the guys that made the zigbee module). The requirements and dimensions of the Bluetooth modules are quite different than that of the Zigbee. In order to cram everything into the Imperos we had to make a couple compromises on orientation of the antenna. I did some experiments this morning and its looking like 100 feet is possible but marginally. I am in contact with both the module manufacturer and the antenna manufacturer to see what we can eek out. I'll update as I get more info.

Tony Lorentzen said:
I somewhat agree with Fredrik on this. 50-60 ft is a little low for my taste. My concern is also how this thing will work when in a building or a couple of rooms away from the camera. I know the plastic shells are already made but would it be possible (with a bit of skills and engineering) to make an external antenna to boost range? I'd be happy to make that mod myself in order to get the stuff here sooner :)
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I was able to get over 200 feet as soon as I pulled the transmitters away from the PCB in the controller and receiver housing so I know for a fact that these little guys have the potential. The trick is going to be getting that range without modifying tooling/part/PCBs. I'd prefer to spend a day experimenting with the antenna guys and see if we have any options. I'm not going to be satisfied until we get at least 100' in open air - that would give you a good 50' in crowded indoor areas. These are a couple viable options if worst come to worst....
 
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