Ursa Mini Disclaimer

[Fahnon Bennett]

I am sure the URSA mini will have a few issues. I have been one many TVC's that had original Red one's with issues too. One TVC had two cameras for exactly that reason, to save on restart time and hide problems from the client. I am sure the newer reds are bullet proof, but I haven't seen that much of them as all the TVC's I have worked beside have been with arri's. I am betting on BM to sort out these with their firmware, just like Red did eventually. But I have had corrupt cards with canon cameras, the 5dmk3 over heating while videoing.

I know they are a bit of a gamble. No problems for me so far, and will keep a record of any issues in the next few months.

paul

Totally agreed and I'm doing the same.

 

[jake blackstone]

I am sure the URSA mini will have a few issues. I have been one many TVC's that had original Red one's with issues too. One TVC had two cameras for exactly that reason, to save on restart time and hide problems from the client. I am sure the newer reds are bullet proof, but I haven't seen that much of them as all the TVC's I have worked beside have been with arri's. I am betting on BM to sort out these with their firmware, just like Red did eventually. But I have had corrupt cards with canon cameras, the 5dmk3 over heating while videoing.

In the name of fairness, you're talking about Red One, the very first Red camera, which, as you correctly pointed out, had some serious issues and eventually, Red was able to take care of all those outstanding issues though a series of firmware upgrades.
UM 4.6 is not even a second or a third camera produced by BMD. As you probably remember, the whole initial production of that first 2k camera was recalled in order to replace the faulty hardware- bad censors.

 

[M.Halsell]

In the name of fairness, you're talking about Red One, the very first Red camera, which, as you correctly pointed out, Red eventually was able to take care of all serous issues with that camera. UM 4.6 is not even close to being a first camera produced by BM. As you probably know, that one was completely recalled to replace the faulty censors.

That being said, if anyone was considering buying Jake a BM product, probably not a good idea. May I suggest a Slate or Blackboard 2 instead.:hurray:

 

[jake blackstone]

That being said, if anyone was considering buying Jake a BM product, probably not a good idea. May I suggest a Slate or Blackboard 2 instead.:hurray:

Why? Courtesy BMD, I won a Linux dongle at last NAB and I'm extremely happy with it, so I wouldn't be too unhappy with the BMD panel, if someone wanted to buy it for me.
I would even settle for my own Tangent Elements or MC Color, if Linux Resolve could work with it:hurray:

 

[M.Halsell]

Why? Courtesy BMD, I won a Linux dongle at last NAB and I'm extremely happy with it, so I wouldn't be too unhappy with the BMD panel, if someone wanted to buy it for me.

Thanks, for letting me wedge in a bit of humor. Back to the regular scheduled program.

 

[jake blackstone]

You're welcome
I just don't see why people needlessly drag Red into this conversation. BMD needs to deal with these very serious issues on their own.

 

[paul ross jones]

In the name of fairness, you're talking about Red One, the very first Red camera, which, as you correctly pointed out, had some serious issues and eventually, Red was able to take care of all those outstanding issues though a series of firmware upgrades.
UM 4.6 is not even a second or a third camera produced by BMD. As you probably remember, the whole initial production of that first 2k camera was recalled in order to replace the faulty hardware- bad censors.

I don't remember as I never considered a BM camera before the Ursa mini- I only ever considered Red (and a few others). This is the first to at least on paper, and in video tests to tick all the boxes. Yes, I know its a gamble, but at this price I am will to take. I am a bit of an optimist! So far, I have no problems. But I have not had it for long.

paul

 

[Phil Holland]

- Fixed pattern noise interference recorded in the image
- Dropped frames during HFR acquisition (even approved cards/frame rates)
- Memory card corruption (loss of important data)
- General overheating problems

I won't go full into the studio test I did, but the above issues as well as certain image quality related things made it "not viable".

Fine for enthusiasts or certain types of professional level shoots. Not okay for anything I shoot and the big 5 and 3 now.

 

[Brandon Shafto]

I had the same issues as well, Phil. I can't imagine ever using one for a pro shoot.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Great for testing and personal projects . But for the money shots, no way !

I did a short, several high gloss commercials, corporate films and other "money shots" on the UM46 - zero problems.
Build like a tank, quiet, cool, no frame-dropping, super reliable, great images, super clean low light shooting, pretty much works out of the bag if you need that, just bolt a battery on it.
No magenta issues, no FPN, can't complain - I'm a happy camper.

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

I have to mirror Frank's experience. I've directed one commercial on it, it's been rented out on 4 rolling stone jobs, and I'm slated to direct 3 or so more music vids for Warner bros on it. It's rented on a series that's traveling to Europe next week. It's worked like a charm, and I honestly didn't expect it too. Two different colonists have finished the past 4 or so shoots and said they loved working with the files... So don't be too scared of it if your on the fence, I thought I would never have anything but RED or arri on my sets. I was wrong.


That all being said though... Do test the camera a bunch before you put it on a job. Stress it and make sure you have a good copy cause there are for sure people out there having issues. Of the 3 that are in Nashville though, they all match and work great.

 

[John Brawley]

As you probably remember, the whole initial production of that first 2k camera was recalled in order to replace the faulty hardware- bad censors.

I don't actually remember jake. Which Blackmagic camera was recalled ?

JB.

 

[Evgenios Zosimov]

BMCC 2.5K, My sensor was bad right off the box, got replaced in no time and after that it was flawless..

 

[Demetri Zuev]

I did a short, several high gloss commercials, corporate films and other "money shots" on the UM46 - zero problems.
Build like a tank, quiet, cool, no frame-dropping, super reliable, great images, super clean low light shooting, pretty much works out of the bag if you need that, just bolt a battery on it.
No magenta issues, no FPN, can't complain - I'm a happy camper.

Please point me in a direction where I can get a camera exactly like yours since I'm thinking about getting an URSA mini 4.6K PL

 

[jake blackstone]

I don't actually remember jake. Which Blackmagic camera was recalled ?

JB.

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=55840&p=378807
A little snippet from the long post by Grant.

"Now the amazing part is that the first batch of sensors we got that we used for developing the camera and that were fine when we started production were manufactured by a completely different company to the second and subsequent batches of sensors. I could not believe this news when I heard it today as it explains a lot.
Our current understanding is that the company that has been bonding on the glass is crap and they have been contaminating the glass when bonding it. Because the sensor suppliers test process was also bad, it meant that no one really knew what was going on and it's been weeks and weeks of confusion."

Now John. What did you think happened to all those cameras, that were delivered to the customers with faulty sensors from the second and subsequent batches, before BMD released there was a problem?

 

[John Brawley]

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=55840&p=378807


Now John. What did you think happened to all those cameras, that were delivered to the customers with faulty sensors from the second and subsequent batches, before BMD released there was a problem?

Nice try Jake.

So, nowhere in that statement does it talk about a recall. Nowhere... That's because there wasn't a recall. Your quote from Grant is in reference to them chasing down a problem they had with the cover glass of the sensor, not the sensor itself.

When Grant issued that statement, they'd stopped deliveries for several months after only initially shipping less than a hundred of their first cameras of many thousands they had on back order.

You can't have it both ways Jake. They stopped shipping cameras almost right after they started to first ship and then stopped shipping them for months while they chased down and fixed the problem. Not every camera was affected, and it was basically debris left behind because the company that makes the paper wrapping that they wrapped the cover glass in changed their adhesive. The sensor company was then installing the coverglass and on a few cameras it was leaving debris behind. Then they were shipped to Blackmagic to be installed.

So there's the paper making company making the new adhesive backed paper, that gets sent to a different company who make the cover glass, which they wrap in this paper, who then send it to the sensor fab company, who then assemble the sensors, who then send it to BM. A company three steps removed from Blackmagic changed a manufacturing process, and caused an issue that none of the three companies picked up in THEIR quality control processes. They changed a process without anything and Blackmagic stopped shipping cameras when they themselves realised something wasn't right and tried to figure out where there were sometimes getting debris after having only shipped a small number of cameras a portion of which had debris on the glass that covers their sensors.

So, you're wrong.

As you probably remember, the whole initial production of that first 2k camera was recalled in order to replace the faulty hardware- bad censors.

This never happened. Maybe be the better man and concede you got it wrong.

They didn't have a recall.

They picked up a problem and stopped shipping.

They stopped shipping but it wasn't because of bad sensors, it was because the glass that covers the sensor had some crap on it. It affected a small portion of the tiny number for very first cameras they ever shipped (and had ever made) When they saw something unexplained happening they halted production at probably the worst possible time, chasing down the cause to company three steps removed from them when none of the other in-between companies had picked it up and then, they fixed it. The "batches" of sensors doesn't mean they shipped cameras in the same batches.

Piss and moan all you like with your Blackmagic vendetta, but at least get the facts right. You inference that they the shipped faulty cameras after picking up an issue is again, another attempt at misdirection and another attempt to sledge your favourite company, based on making stuff up in your own mind that fits your Blackmagic narrative that you like to trot out at any opportunity.

There is plenty of ammunition from the many many thousands of cameras Blackmagic shipped. Why not use that ?


JB

 

[M.Halsell]

John, last time you were in these parts, you indicated you had a shoot scheduled potentially using the UM4.6K as B or C camera. How did that production go?

 

[Mike Halper]

Something to consider is that most of the people that are going to post about their camera working or not working properly on a manufacturer's forum are going to post about the issues they have. On pretty much any camera-related forum you will find more posts by owners talking about the problems they have than posts by owners talking about how flawless their camera is. On BMD's forum there's maybe 20-30 people posting they have an issue with their camera? If more than that, I'd say it's still under 50. I've been paying attention since I'm considering a UM4.6K myself. And there's posts there of owners saying they've had no issues at all. There's a thread on bmcuser talking about this as well, and numerous responses from owners who say they've had no issues or they initially had no issues but got them fixed and now have been flawless. How many cameras has BMD shipped? Thousands by now? There's a lot of cameras out there that are an unknown, and possibly working just fine.

When I first got my Epic-X it had all kinds of issues. I actually lost money initially with it because of failures during shoots. It failed during the first shoot with it. Red serviced it, and still had problems after that. Red repaired the camera twice before replacing it with a brand new one. The Bomb EVF was garbage. Terrible image when shooting very dark, low-light scenes. My BSR came out to look at what I was talking about, verified what I was seeing, took pictures, and the techs said it was to spec. I had another non-Red EVF, the Red Touch LCD, and an LCD monitor connected that didn't have same issues. It failed one month out of warranty and cost half the price of a new one to repair it. And it still had issues after that. And my Red Touch LCD had some kind of debris between the LCD panel and the touch glass, and needed to go in for servicing to fix that.

I can go down a long list of issues I've seen with Red cameras, most recently being a Red Epic Dragon that would power off on its own while recording, causing corrupted shots that have been a real pain in post. It wasn't a battery issue or anything like that either. It was a camera issue. The camera I've see the least amount of problems with is the Arri Alexa cameras, but I have seen some odd things from those as well... just not that many as I could count them on less than one hand.

No camera is perfect. Any camera can fail at any moment, whether it's BMD, Red, Arri, Sony, etc. They are all a risky investment and going into any shoot without a backup plan should the camera fail is a bad idea. That's why it's better to rent from a rental house that can replace a camera when it fails, and that's one of the reasons they can charge more than an owner/op for their rentals.

Are Red and Arri and Sony and Canon cameras better than BMD? Reliability track record wise, yes probably. But you're paying a lot of extra money for that reliability and support, and some people either don't have that kind of money or don't want to spend that kind of money, but want a camera and want to shoot something. For some there's more value in Red, Arri, Sony, and Canon and it's worth the extra cost. For others, there's more value in BMD. You could buy 2 UM4.6K's for less than the price of one of any of the other cameras from any of the other manufacturers and have one as a backup if you desired. Or shoot with both and if one fails you still have one to continue shooting with.

Obviously BMD cameras aren't perfect and BMD has a way to go to overcome the current perception of their cameras. But Red had a very bumpy road at first as well, even when it cost 3 times what an UM4.6K PL costs. Has BMD been slower to figure out how to do it all right? Of course, and hopefully they'll turn things around with the UM4.6K.

 

[M.Halsell]

Buying a UM4.6K

Buying a UM4.6K

Mike, that was a good perspective. Thanks for the post. If I could press you further on the topic. The good units in the wild, where they off the same truck or delivery schedule? Or is a matter of luck or not in getting a good or defective unit? I guess, I'm asking is there any buying strategy involved?

 

[Mike Halper]

I have no idea. I don't work for BMD or any of their distributors, dealers, or rental houses. If you're referring to the magenta corner issue, my guess is that all of them will exhibit it under certain conditions, which seems to be around 35mm focal length at T8 or higher stop. The thing is, most people that shoot non-documentary style shoot less than T8 and likely would never see it. Personally I rarely shoot higher than T4, and usually like to ride around T2.8, so I'm sure I'd probably never see it. But I don't want to deal with the possibility, so I'm waiting to see if they can fix the problem. I'm also done with buying pretty much anything in the first wave. I'd rather wait a few batches and let them work out the manufacturing bugs. This goes for cameras, computers, TV's, cars, etc... I've been burned too many times pre-ordering or buying into something right away.