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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Unacceptable rates?

Also make sure to call the insurance company and verify the insurance and deductible amounts.
 
Dominick remember all insurance certs are void without proper rental contract signed. I went to a seminar organized by one of the gear insurance companies a while back and find it to be absolutely essential if you are going to rent anything.
There are so many catches very easy to avoid if you know this stuff.
It was free and took 2-3 hrs and with the info I never had a problem renting gear. Absolutely a must ...
 
i agree. i do have rental forms drafted up from when i used to rent my 5d and other stuff. But im sure i could stand to make better ones if im renting out much more expensive gear.
 
yea that works sometimes. I could see if somebody just really needed it for a couple hours, but still.
 
copy that. thanks brad
 
Doug Beatty said:
'Do you do half days? We don't have the money for a full day.' - I'm going to try that one next time I rent a car.
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Most rental places have something like that... if not upfront, on the backend (for when you're overdue.) Then there are things like zip car... Just sayin'

Anyway, tough call; for a no-budget feature, at $10,000 I would definitely opt to buy my own kit... Even if it cost an additional $5000 ($15k) to get a shootable package, it'd a be a fixed cost and I could make as many features/ads/docs/corpvids/shorts as I wanted on said package, so it'd be far more worthwhile to own.

Conversely, if I only had $3k, there's no way in hell I'd expect to be able to rent a full package (Scarlet or otherwise) for three weeks (21days). If I absolutely insisted on shooting Scarlet/4k and only had $3k to spend, I'd be looking for ways to cut my shooting schedule down by half (10-12days) before I started demanding a three week rental for $3k from someone. Were you going to be camera operator as well? Could you get recoupment on the backend if the movie did well? If they can get an R1 package for so cheap, why didn't they?

I dunno, $10k is a little high, but it doesn't seem crazy. $3k, on the other hand, seems straight loco.
 
being cam op is preferred for me, but not essential, though i like to be on set with my camera even if im just watching and there to answer questions. after talking to people 7500 seemed about ok for 20ish days. but still. if you want to shoot a professional feature on professional tools, i would expect to shell out a little dough. or know somebody who is your best friend who owes you some favors and will spend 20 days of his time with his gear to do you a solid. I just know some ops with epics and R1's and i consider them friends. and even still, if i need something, my friend rate is still like 600-800 for a solid package.
 
Domenic, I was shocked when I discovered some guys renting an EPIC for $400 a day. With full kit. With lenses. With everything.

"We've set a rental price for this incredible camera on a level everyone can afford and so there really would be no choice but to rent it from us" their marketing materials say.

This is crazy, sometimes I want to look these people in the eye and just ask them: "What the hell are you doing?"

You just have to know the right price for your gear and your services and stick to them no matter what.

OptiTek said:
with the info I never had a problem renting gear. Absolutely a must ...
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Jacek, can you maybe tell us main points of info that you got from this seminar?
 
I have always found the quality of the people you work with and hence the quality of the work you realize is directly proportional to the assessment of what people believe you are capable of. One way to quantify this is by what people are willing to pay you.

Tell them to fuck off.
 
i like you peter :)
 
Domenic, I feel for you. We live in a brand new world where prices are completely in flux. The landscape has become so flat and long that it's very hard to know what is a fair price anymore. Some people are happy to rent a "RED" with full lens package for $1500 a day, they don't care whether it's a Scarlet, R1, or Epic. Others want to low ball you and get it for free. There is no set standard anymore.

I could go on a rant here about the democratization of talent and skills, but I will spare you. The truth is, many of us can do many more "jobs" than was possible even 10 years ago, because technology has allowed that to happen. So many of us can shoot, direct, edit, mix, record sound, act, do graphics, it's hard to keep track. Everyone's signatures are littered with "slashes" (director/writer, etc), mine included.

However, that being said, I have found that the cream rises to the top. The people that embrace what they are BEST at and focus on that...tend to do better, and get paid more. We all have access to gear now, but our talent and experience is now what separates us.

Which means ultimately that we all need to band together, and be honest about what we are good at. A team comprised of great shooters, great editors, and great writers is more likely to deliver a great product...than one person struggling mightily to do it alone.

So, though I've ended up giving you the speech anyway, I'll leave you with this.

F*ck these clowns. They suck for trying to low-ball you, and their low-rent tactics speak volumes about how they treat people and their projects. Stick to your rates, stick to valuing your talent, and the more you focus on your own skills and character, the more THOSE qualities will get you paid...eventually more than your gear.

Don't work with them. They are not worth it. And they don't get it.

Good luck.
 
thanks nick. Thats basically the conclusion ive come to.
 
plus my 20 days labor for cam op, i thought seemed pretty fair.
 
Peter Strietmann said:
I have always found the quality of the people you work with and hence the quality of the work you realize is directly proportional to the assessment of what people believe you are capable of. One way to quantify this is by what people are willing to pay you.
Click to expand...

Nick Morrison said:
Domenic, I feel for you. We live in a brand new world where prices are completely in flux. The landscape has become so flat and long that it's very hard to know what is a fair price anymore. Some people are happy to rent a "RED" with full lens package for $1500 a day, they don't care whether it's a Scarlet, R1, or Epic. Others want to low ball you and get it for free. There is no set standard anymore.

I could go on a rant here about the democratization of talent and skills, but I will spare you. The truth is, many of us can do many more "jobs" than was possible even 10 years ago, because technology has allowed that to happen. So many of us can shoot, direct, edit, mix, record sound, act, do graphics, it's hard to keep track. Everyone's signatures are littered with "slashes" (director/writer, etc), mine included.

However, that being said, I have found that the cream rises to the top. The people that embrace what they are BEST at and focus on that...tend to do better, and get paid more. We all have access to gear now, but our talent and experience is now what separates us.

Which means ultimately that we all need to band together, and be honest about what we are good at. A team comprised of great shooters, great editors, and great writers is more likely to deliver a great product...than one person struggling mightily to do it alone.

So, though I've ended up giving you the speech anyway, I'll leave you with this.

F*ck these clowns. They suck for trying to low-ball you, and their low-rent tactics speak volumes about how they treat people and their projects. Stick to your rates, stick to valuing your talent, and the more you focus on your own skills and character, the more THOSE qualities will get you paid...eventually more than your gear.
Click to expand...

This is a straight camera rental, there's no skill involved... From the sound of it, they're not trying to hire a camera operator, he just wants to operate so he can look after his gear. On a $10K feature budget, they have no money to hire an operator (or any other crew for that matter).

To the OP, since you didn't know rental houses charge 3 day weeks, you probably aren't familiar with what rental rates are supposed to be. A good rule of thumb to use when determining rental rates is 1-2% of the purchase price for the day rate. If it's an item that will have significant depreciation over the short term, like something electronic that is replaced every 3 years (ie scarlet), it will be 2-2.5% of the purchase price per day. For things that don't depreciate much over the long term, like lenses, it's more like .7-1% per day. For example, an $80K 12:1 optimo rents for $550/day (.07%).

Based on looking at your camera package, a reasonable day rate is probably 1.5-2% of the full purchase price of the camera package, which at approx $30K should be about $550-$600/day. Then factor in 3 day weeks, but in this case it'll actually be a 9 day month (another rental house practice), and you're looking at best at $5400 for the whole shoot. Then figure there's a little more negotiating, and you should probably make out with $4500-$5K for the whole shoot.

There's still other variables, like how rare is a scarlet where you live, whether youll be oping, etc.

$10K was super high, and $3K is somewhat low. If I got offered $4K-$5K for that package, I'd take it. That's paying off 15% of your purchase price in less than a month, which is a solid return.
 
Alex, I do not agree with the 1-2% assessment. We try to get 3-5%. When factoring in our loss in the equipment, insurance, depreciation - 1 to 2% is way low.
 
It's definitely market dependent, so maybe in Wichita you can get away with 3%-5% because there's less supply, but in LA or NY that's not happening. I deal with different camera packages from both rental houses and owner/ops on a weekly basis, and rates are never that high. For Alexa shoots sometimes it may be closer to 3%, but never for Red.
 
I agree that my price was originally too high. That being said. At 7500 that would be a fair price in my opinion. Its crazy that people want such expensive gear for so cheap. but i have to pay for insurance and be on set, not to mention my personal work stops for 20 days as well. It may pay off a good part of my camera, but to want 30k worth of camera and accessories for a feature and only pay 150 a day, that seems pretty insane. Id rather not deal with the stress of people using my camera unless it was really worth it. which at around 7500 i would think is fair. I am DP on a short film that is only 4 days of shooting and they hired me on for 3k for 4 days. That is doable for me. but im not a rental house, nor do i have rental house insurance or standards, so rental house rules only mildly apply to me. Im sure they could go to a rental house and get a nice package for kinda cheap, but considering the add ons and lens and dit, i think this is fair for now. Im not a renter, but i should be more savvy to pricing since it is a good way to pay back some investment.
 
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