to own or to rent red.. what would you prefer?

[Finner]

Curran personally I would think you would do a lot better to try and set up a rental situation of your own and then see if rental houses in your area are interested in having your camera as a sub-rental if they need it from time to time. I could see this system working better for you as the percentage a rental house will give you will be much lower then what you can get if you rent it yourself.

Personally I will only rent my camera out with me on the project or to crew that I know very well. If you are not comfortable as a operator or 1st Asst. or 2nd Asst. just go out as a DIT because in the first 6-12 months there will be not that many red workflow DIT pro's out there and you should be able to get a premium rate for yourself and your capture laptop and equipment. Right now in Vancouver a IATSE union DIT quite often makes more money then the 1st.

I think I see how owners could maximize their rental profit. If you are interested in my thoughts let me know and I will get into detail on it.

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Finner

Just because it's never been done doesn't mean it can't be done.
You can't overlook the fact that the RedOne is not your average camera, and the fact that the delivery date of cameras could play a huge part here.

Emmanuel

 

[Finner]

Emmanuel

Sure go ahead anything is possible. As far as if I was a rental house owner and a red owner came up to me and telling me how they were interested in sub renting their camera to me on their terms and differently then the way rental houses work I would get a bit of a laugh.

I find it sort of amussing how you want to know how the typical rental house works with sub-rentals or long term rentals but when you don't get the answer you want you come up with excuses on why you feel it should be different. If you don't want to hear the answer to a question don't ask.

Just because a person owns a red does not put them in the drivers seat and this bussiness is all about repeat bussiness so building good relationships is the key.

 

[Ramesh Jai]

Babes...?

Babes...?

I thought RED was masculine? (ha ho hum):innocent:

 

[Curran Giddens]

Curran personally I would think you would do a lot better to try and set up a rental situation of your own and then see if rental houses in your area are interested in having your camera as a sub-rental if they need it from time to time. I could see this system working better for you as the percentage a rental house will give you will be much lower then what you can get if you rent it yourself.

Personally I will only rent my camera out with me on the project or to crew that I know very well. If you are not comfortable as a operator or 1st Asst. or 2nd Asst. just go out as a DIT because in the first 6-12 months there will be not that many red workflow DIT pro's out there and you should be able to get a premium rate for yourself and your capture laptop and equipment. Right now in Vancouver a IATSE union DIT quite often makes more money then the 1st.

I think I see how owners could maximize their rental profit. If you are interested in my thoughts let me know and I will get into detail on it.

Thanks Finner. I'm interested in any thoughts on maximizing profit. I guess in a typical sub-rental system you just have to trust that the rental house actually rents your camera out, and not just use it as backup.

I will be available for hire as DIT for RED and View Factor Studios MoCo technical and software issues starting next year....

http://www.solarsystemstudio.com

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Emmanuel

Sure go ahead anything is possible. As far as if I was a rental house owner and a red owner came up to me and telling me how they were interested in sub renting their camera to me on their terms and differently then the way rental houses work I would get a bit of a laugh.

I really don't mean to do things on "my" terms, but rather to find everybody's interest. If you are a rental company but you didn't hear about Red soon enough or didn't take it seriously at first, you might get in a position where you would welcome a red owner's offer to let you rent his camera out, it's all about mutual respect and general interest, this is the only RULE.

I find it sort of amussing how you want to know how the typical rental house works with sub-rentals or long term rentals but when you don't get the answer you want you come up with excuses on why you feel it should be different. If you don't want to hear the answer to a question don't ask.

"the answer"… man… I don't take Finner's answers for the only possible answers… I'm just sorry for you if you think they are.

Just because a person owns a red does not put them in the drivers seat and this bussiness is all about repeat bussiness so building good relationships is the key.

I guess it all depends on the demand for the camera and the availability of this camera. Apart from that, I agree that it's all about good relationship and mutual interest.

Hey Finner:sarcasm:
I'm only reacting to the fact that you seem to want your answers ( which are quite sensible I should say ) to be definitive.
Other from that, I hope you will believe I have not a thing against the very dear you.

sincerely

Emmanuel

 

[Finner]

Okay well this is the big thing I have learned from many producers over the years and that is they all want a deal. The secret is to give them all a "deal" in different ways but still get the day rate sum you want. I will be using mine as a director/Dp and my brother in law as the DIT but I will also rent mine out without me and just with brother in law as the DIT. Here is how I best see to get your price.

Camera package day rate.

Rent the body and evf at price X.

Rent everything else out seprately.

charge for the red drive and flash memory(which ever combination you want).

pimp out a cool looking lap top capture system, it does not have to be a really expensive system but make it look cool on a expensive looking cart. You should be able to charge a high rental premium for this "computer capture cart" I would say greater then $300 a day.

Sell the hard drives to the companies that you do the capture on for $100 to $150 more then you pay for it.

A DIT on anything with a decent budget should be able to get $500 or more a day and charge overtime after 10hrs.

Get a decent HD LCD that is fairly good sized and rent it as a premium directors monitor for 20% of its value a day. This also gives you a nice home TV for yourself. If you have an aluminum protecive case built for it the monitor will appear more "proffesional production level" which translates to a higher day rental price.


In the end the secret is in the extras. RED got a bunch of people excited because they announced a $17,500 camera. In the end though we all know you will not have much of a useable camera if thats all you buy. With cine glass and all the extras a person is actually looking at 40-50k and up. If Jim had announced the camera price at the total pckage price of 40-50k excitement and buzz would not have been nearly as high its still a good deal at that price but it was the under 20k price that really got people talking about red.

So hook the producers with a well priced rental on the camera itself and make your $$ on all the extras. Producers are already use to buying film and tape so renting your flash media, red drives and buying 1TB hard drives from you will be an easy sell. When the director and producer see the clear HD image of your 40 or so inch monitor that should be an easy sell (you can also make a high mark up rental on monitor cables and have extra mini to standard XLR adapters that you can rent out too) . Producers are also use to paying big $$ for edit suite time so a on set "computer off line edit suite/ capture device will rent for a bunch and they will love that they can see a rough cut of footage just minutes after shooting a shot. I totally feel the key is to grab them with the camera itself, if you rent the body & EVF for around $600 a day and they want it for $500 don't be afraid to let the have it for that price or cheaper as you can make up the money elsewhere on the package, maybe you just got a great deal on some hard drives and can sell them to the poroduction for twice what you paid for them there are many ways to get more $$. The key is to hooking them right off the bat by making them think they are getting a fantastic deal on the camera and then the extras are where you get it back. To give you an example of this I just got a 6 day job on a big national car commercial. I told the producer my rate and he hummed and hawed and asked if I would take X amount I took a few seconds and then agreed then after talking about my kit rental which I raised to a higher amount then I usually charge (I got no argument because in his mind he already thought he was getting a good deal) and then I mentioned that I work on a 10hr day rate, I ussually work on a 12hr rate but because he had asked me to work for a cheaper rate I made it 10hr's. I know from experience car commercials usually shoot very long days so in the end I am actually going to be making more money then I usually charge but he thinks he got me for cheaper then usual so he is happy because he thinks he got a good deal. This bussiness is really all about smoke and mirrors and when rentals and day rates come into play it is all a bit of a poker game of sorts.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Finner,

thanks for sharing your great RED rental visions and experiences.

 

[Brice Ansel]

Finner that was a good one. Bad luck I'm not good at poker

 

[Joel Kaye]

see the clear HD image of your 40 or so inch monitor

Great post Finner!

JVC's got a new 24" monitor that looks like it might be really good:
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602806

Anybody got experience with this unit?

But perhaps a 1080P 40" consumer monitor is more impressive though less accurate...hmmm. I'd rather have the accuracy personally - it could do double duty as a color correction monitor off set.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Get a decent HD LCD that is fairly good sized and rent it as a premium directors monitor for 20% of its value a day. This also gives you a nice home TV for yourself.

Excellent post Finner! I could use a nice home TV for myself, this is just the excuse I needed! It's an investment in my biz ... yeah, that's it.... :innocent:

 

[beatniq]

Japan is a little non-conventional in that most people live at home with their parents until they get married, so for them the salary is actually pretty good

Actually, you have it backwards.

It's America that is "a little unconventional." What you say about Japan is true of most places in this world except the U.S., where you are expected to live on your own after graduating college (or even H.S., if you don't go to college).

Just my $0.02

 

[Finner]

Great post Finner!

JVC's got a new 24" monitor that looks like it might be really good:
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602806

Anybody got experience with this unit?

But perhaps a 1080P 40" consumer monitor is more impressive though less accurate...hmmm. I'd rather have the accuracy personally - it could do double duty as a color correction monitor off set.

IMO this monitor is too expensive for on set video village because the red is shooting raw and the image sent out to video village is not usually going to be the correct color correction that is choosen in red cine anyways. A 40"1080P monitor will blow away producers and directors as they have become use to a crappy film video tap that looks like garbage. I think a large HD (consumer model, but don't tell them that) will be the way to go.

 

[Finner]

Actually, you have it backwards.

It's America that is "a little unconventional." What you say about Japan is true of most places in this world except the U.S., where you are expected to live on your own after graduating college (or even H.S., if you don't go to college).

Just my $0.02

Sounds like you have done a lot of research on this. My bet is you live in the basement of your parents home.:tongue:

 

[beatniq]

Sounds like you have done a lot of research on this. My bet is you live in the basement of your parents home.:tongue:

If by research, you mean being born in a foreign country, then yeah I guess you're right about that.

But no, I don't live in my parents basement. If I did live with my parents, however, I'd probably just take one of the spare rooms rather than live in that dingy basement. Though unfortunately, all those super-cool Americans who scrape by on their month-to-month wages would make witty "live in your parents basement" jokes and I'd have no life.

 

[Finner]

Dingy- I lived in my parents basement until I was 21 and it was a kick ass basement. I moved out because I bought a house so personally I see a lot of americans making a smart choice to move out buy a house and start building equity and not just scrape by.

 

[beatniq]

Dingy- I lived in my parents basement until I was 21 and it was a kick ass basement. I moved out because I bought a house so personally I see a lot of americans making a smart choice to move out buy a house and start building equity and not just scrape by.

Wow. Well, good for you. Personally for me, I've never known anyone who could afford to buy clue, let alone a house, at the age of 21.

Usually, at that age, most of the people I knew were running around like headless chickens trying to figure out what in the hell to do with the rest of their lives after just having graduated from college.

 

[Finner]

For many years it was myself and 3 roomates so thats how I made it work.

 

[PaulClements]

People can't afford to buy a house in the UK at 41 let alone 21. My cousin buys property in america, he owns about 5 places at the last count, probably more now since he's been out there for the last couple of months. For the price he pays for them though he'd barely get a flat in London for all of them, even out in the sticks he'd probably only be able to get a 2 or 3 bedroom house for them. Collectively they return a far higher value in rent than that one place in the UK would though and he doesn't have a mortgage or anything to worry about either.

Point is the market is far different in the US than many other places, so it's easier to own.

 

[Finner]

I understand that pain Paul. I worked on Shanghi Knights with a bunch of UK crew and we got talking about wages and cost of living and we were all a little shocked that the north american film wages for the same positions was higher and the cost of living here was a lot lower. Big cities here have had some changes over the last few years though. My current house has gone up over 4 times what it was worth 5 years ago. Friends of mine in their 30's that procrastinated and decided they did not want to have to make any sacrifices to their lifestyle now can no longer buy a house and now only buy a condo (flat) if they are lucky.