to own or to rent red.. what would you prefer?

[Stephen Williams]

How much do you guys think I could get per week for a long-term loan (3-4 months) to a rental shop?

I will have everything EXCEPT the Prime lenses, 300mm zoom, EVF, and flash recording options.

I will have RED-RAM, RED-DRIVE, RAW port, LCD, battery pack, premium pack, 18-50mm zoom, 50-85mm zoom.

I'm sure there will be some established rental houses that need more RED ONE's then they have available for the first few months. Is $500/week about right?

Hi,

Normally a rental house will give you 50% of revenue earned from each piece of kit. I think you will have a problem renting at all without an EVF.

Stephen

 

[Curran Giddens]

Hi,

Normally a rental house will give you 50% of revenue earned from each piece of kit. I think you will have a problem renting at all without an EVF.

Stephen

Yeah, I guess I could just go ahead and get an EVF for you old school guys. I'm not going to use one myself. Maybe the rental house could just buy an extra one from RED to include in my rental package.

 

[donatello b]

if you have a low # you might be able to get more then 50% for a "period of time" ... i've been talking to a few ...i'm finding the rental houses outside of LA that do not have a reservations or order are offering in the 75% area based on RED body , EVF, Batt , media and then they will make their $$ renting out all other accessories/lenses/camera support from their inventory - .. many film rental houses outside of LA are finding their film camera's are sitting on the shelf for a longer time between rentals ... in general they want 2 REDs min - just in case one goes down on a rental or they want to know where they can get a back up in very short time ...

"the rental house could just buy an extra one from RED to include in my rental package"

IMO it will be a long time before a rental house or individual without a order for a RED that they are picking up can just call up RED and say send me a EVF ...

 

[Stephen Williams]

Yeah, I guess I could just go ahead and get an EVF for you old school guys. I'm not going to use one myself. Maybe the rental house could just buy an extra one from RED to include in my rental package.

Hi,

Once you start shooting wide open, you will want an EVF.

The rental house will ideally want a Body, EVF & recording medium, they probably already have lenses, matte boxes, follow focus units & tripods they want to rent to their customers.

Stephen

 

[Finner]

Not to pick on you or anything, but a 2nd only fetches the lenses.

The 1st and DP are the only ones who should physically touch the camera and or swap lens.

When i was a 1st I met a lot of DP's that should not touch the lenses also. You would be suprised how many do not even know how to swap a lense. I would teach my seconds how to mount lenses to the camera in there 1st week with me.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Hi,

Once you start shooting wide open, you will want an EVF.

The rental house will ideally want a Body, EVF & recording medium, they probably already have lenses, matte boxes, follow focus units & tripods they want to rent to their customers.

Stephen

Ok. You convinced me to get an EVF. I guess now I'll have some more time to scrape up more cash before my camera ships. I forgot that my original accessories order was based on the old shipping schedule.

 

[Proteus]

I haven't ordered one yet, but I'll definitely buy a RED camera.
I'll need it for a couple of special projects next year, although I'm not a filmmaker. The projects will be professional though, but in areas not usually addressed by filmmakers. I will have to stretch the limits of what RED can provide and what can be delivered commercially.

I need the camera at next spring and I hope they will be able to ship new orders by then. As I reside in Europe, it'll cost me much more (because of customs) and it is unlikely that there will be any rentals soon enough and close enough... but I always like to own my equipment.

BTW, I think that the RED team should consider establishing an office in Europe for distribution in reasonable prices. Europe might prove to be a larger market in the following years...

RED ONE #???

 

[Paul Leeming]

One other small note about pricing for rental - I've learned the hard way that it's usually better to overcharge a bit and cut out the bottom rung of people who are looking at lowest price first, while ironically being the most demanding when it comes to complaining about every little thing, wanting further discounts, saying they are not happy when you have given them all they asked for, in order to try to get out of paying etc etc.

If I can avoid those types by charging a little more, thus pricing it outside their value mindset, so be it. My life will be far less stressful as a result!

 

[Stephen Williams]

If I can avoid those types by charging a little more, thus pricing it outside their value mindset, so be it. My life will be far less stressful as a result!

Hi Paul,

The same works being a DOP!

Stephen

 

[laguun]

just for the discussion about calculation and daily rate, some rules of thumb from the german rental market:

new/rare gear, high demand, few offers: 1-2% retail price/day
etablished gear, mid demand, mid offers: 0.75-1% retail price/day
common gear, low demand, many offers: 0.5-0.75% retail price/day

a week booking will usually result in ~10/15%, a month ~20/30% price reduction.
highly support/maintenance intense gear (optics, crt etc) add some %%.

ironically, very inexpensive devices and peripherals often have much higher %/day, we often see customers who rent out hvx200 ~150/200 euro a day, while we often rent out sony 750 hdcams at 250/300 for regular customers.

 

[Mark K.]

just for the discussion about calculation and daily rate, some rules of thumb from the german rental market:

new/rare gear, high demand, few offers: 1-2% retail price/day
etablished gear, mid demand, mid offers: 0.75-1% retail price/day
common gear, low demand, many offers: 0.5-0.75% retail price/day

a week booking will usually result in ~10/15%, a month ~20/30% price reduction.
highly support/maintenance intense gear (optics, crt etc) add some %%.

ironically, very inexpensive devices and peripherals often have much higher %/day, we often see customers who rent out hvx200 ~150/200 euro a day, while we often rent out sony 750 hdcams at 250/300 for regular customers.

Which works out to pretty much the figures I was suggesting. Thank you Laguun.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

However they seem to come up with rental figures in Hollywood, they don't seem like good deals at all to me. If the rental companies have high overheads and really don't make much money, well, I feel sorry for them I guess, but that shouldn't be my problem as a consumer. I mean to charge $225 per day for a dolly is just a joke. I found several good, professional dolly systems online for $3,500, and sure if you want a full set of tracks and wheels for the tracks, etc., you could even spend $12,000 on a dolly. But if you're going to spend $225 a day and shoot for 50 days a year, you're going to spend that anyway. And you don't get tracks for $225 a day. Just the dolly. That is a particular piece of equipment that is a massive ripoff. Another thing is when you see a boom mic rented for like $50 a day. I don't care whether it does or does not have a pole, a good boom mic setup is still only $900 to $1,200, so basically they're going to make their money back in a month of rentals. Uhh ok? Not on my dollar. It's hard to identify basically any good rental prices whatsoever, especially when I see something like an XL-1S renting for $200 per day, then you really know the world is backwards. That camera should be about $50 per day. It's not worth more than $1,800 on eBay, it can't even shoot native 16:9, it's garbage compared to the XL-2. I can't imagine a professional renting that camera at all, let alone for $200 a day. Maybe that's why it's overpriced, after all, because nobody rents it so it takes a year to pay it off at $200 a day because it only rents for like 8 days of the year.

I'm not seeing the 1% a day thing. Most of the equipment I've seen looks like they could pay for the equipment (without the cost of their overhead, salaries, marketing, etc.) in about 20-40 days, maybe 50 days, which is 2% per day. But maybe where you are that is more the case, I have no idea. I'm just judging from all of the local prices I've seen in L.A., which have repeatedly made me think the equipment rental business might be a sweet one to be in after all.

About the DP comment -- I'm sure that's true. If you have too cheap of rates you're going to get some really idiotic project requests. This DP I worked with one day on the Cybill Shepherd public service announcement was working the next day for some dude making an apology video for his ex-girlfriend. What the heck is that about? I was with him on that shoot, too, and I couldn't believe what an idiot this director was. He was the subject of every shot of the movie, of course, he didn't have addresses listed for any of the places he was filming, and he knew not the first thing about making a movie. When the DP asked him how the lighting scheme was inside of this bar, the guy said, "Oh it's just a pretty standard thing to light." Standard thing to light? What the heck does that even mean? The 1st A.C. and the DP were both laughing at him when we went to lunch and he stayed at his place, which was also weird. He had us filming in Pasadena, Hollywood, and downtown Los Angeles (in the late afternoon on a Friday, brilliant). He had no script, just some poorly written notes he sent via e-mail. I felt bad for this DP, I hope he got paid well, because it was a bad, bad project. This guy was experienced, too, probably in his late 40s to mid 50s. If I was that age and had done quite a bit in the industry, I would rather not work at all than waste my time on something that unprofessional. I think he owed it to this guy because a friend of his promised he could help him or something.

 

[donatello b]

IMO - suppy & demand will be a big factor in rental price ...
lets just say a shootable RED will rent for 1200-1500 day ( body, one zoom, batts, EFV, LCD, media, sticks) ... if you have been a 500 day cameraperson ( including camera -HVX, DVX, HDV or whatever you have ) i really don't think your clients are going to start paying you 1700-2000 day ... most clients that pay 500 -1000 day are not jumping up to 1700+ day and from what i've seen over the years when a 500 day client decides to spend 2000 day you ( 500 day) are OUT of the picture because they look at you as a 500 day cameraperson = they want the person that is a 1700 day cameraperson all the time ... there are 500 , 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 day camerapersons and if i'm going to pay 3000 day i'm not going to hire the person i've been paying 1000 day = nature of the business ...

 

[John Waterman]

You also need to consider the other cameras in your rental market. A producer may be hot for the RED, like all of us, or they may just want a good, pro level camera. I can rent a super 16 Arri SR2 with all the goodies, follow focus, mattebox, filters, mags, video tap, field monitor, sticks, etc. for only $900 per day, with a 3 day week. I'd have to spend money on film and processing and telecine tho. I can get a full on f900 package for about $1200 per day, with 3 day week. So use the existing camera rental market as a guide.

 

[John Waterman]

But when all the REDs are dumped into the market the rental houses can lower the rates on their existing camera packages, which they have already paid off, so I might be able to get a varicam or f900 for $400-$500?? per day.

 

[laguun]

I'm not seeing the 1% a day thing. Most of the equipment I've seen looks like they could pay for the equipment (without the cost of their overhead, salaries, marketing, etc.) in about 20-40 days, maybe 50 days, which is 2% per day. But maybe where you are that is more the case, I have no idea. I'm just judging from all of the local prices I've seen in L.A., which have repeatedly made me think the equipment rental business might be a sweet one to be in after all.

there are several common misconceptions about the rental business.
you -never- will earn a device back on 50 days with 2%. why? 50*2=100? sure, but you have -huge- overheads and additional costs.
let me illustrate this with some examples.

the rental market is mostly a pro-market.
- therefore, it is 100% necessary to have a backup for most the pro-customers. you can´t charge them for the second camera which you should, rather must have, in order to competete in several markets - or you loose the customer.


- customers don´t rent equipment alone, they rent service and comfort as well.
good example: tripods&gripping. it seems to me that the tripods are even more emotional to many cameramen than cooke vs. angenieux. and there is sachtler, o´connor, vinten..... a huge selection of different manufacturers. and the customer has preferences. he doesn´t want the sachtler when he wants the vinten, he doesn´t want the 150´if he wants to have the 100. and he will often require "his" preferred followfocus, remote, mattebox etc. so you will have lots of equipment idle, even if the cameras are working, and they also costs lots of money. now, the customer -could- rent the tripod there, the mattebox here, the camera at that other house, but he won´t. he would be forced into a dreadful micromanagement, would have no one to help him out when the followfocus isn´t working with the lens etc. so add big sums of "unnecessary" gear to match the clients wishes here as well.


-a day the customer has the camera isn´t a rental day.
shooting schedule. 1-3 shooting. then 4-5 break, team moves to other location. 5-9 shooting there. then 10-12 only one day of shooting, as weather is uncertain. you don´t charge the days the gear is on the road or on standby at 100% rental, 25-33% is pretty common. furthermore, most people do take weekends. so, this can be somewhere between -10 to -40% net revenue, and especially documentaries are usual suspect for 8 weeks rental, 5 weeks shooting.


-you will need a top-class insurance. even if you don´t think you want one, believe me, you really want a good insurance if you rent out.
this will typically drain 0.3-1% of the equiments worth a month. it will be more if the insurance covers 4h on location replacement.


-producers WILL negotiate. and they can.
the larger the rental budget, the harder they will try to push the prices down. its their job.


-you need paid workforce to have the office running 7/7.
not only one person, or you will lose jobs for sure, simply because you are talking with the current customer and can´t pick up the phone for the next one.


-you will need maintenance.
red seems wonderful, a camera with almost no moving parts. but optics etc
-will 100%- require expensive service over time.


-murphys law applies to shooting schedules, especially when actors are involved.
even if you have 4 weeks of shooting an then directly following another 3 weeks for another project, it is very possible that the first project will require more shooting time and/or the second one starts earlier. if one already has signed the contract, the rental customer will expect you to find gear for the overlapping time. if you don´t chances are high that you won´t see the customer again. and typically you will pay much more than you earn for the 2 or 4 days of overlapping schedule of the both projects.

there are many more points to take into consideration, but i hope these points already demonstrated that there is considerable overhead in rental biz.

 

[MosesMa]

Time-sharing RED cameras

Time-sharing RED cameras

I mean my goal is to be a feature film director, and if I have to direct small projects I finance myself for $50,000 (and can make my money back) that's ok, but I think especially for the first few years, I'm going to need to supplement my income with something more every-day.

Hey gang,

I was talking to Ken and Wendy over at BAVC, and we came up with an interesting idea to help indie producers... time-sharing a complete RED film package. This concept would work something like this - AND THIS IS STILL IN THE CONCEPT STAGE:

- two REDs, one prime set, the zooms, as well as viewfinders, monitors, matte boxes, sufficient memory and storage solutions
- probably $100K of REDstuff & other equipment
- we'd let 10 indie producers co-own the package at a cost of $10K apiece
- this would give those producers access to the entire kit for four weeks each per year (scheduling will be a nightmare though)
- BAVC - a trusted non-profit - would manage the program, in exchange for getting to use the equipment during the remaining time available
- this allows the 10 producers to use this kit EVERY YEAR for a new film project, and could resell their time-share slot to someone else
- we're doing a financial projection shortly, including the cost of having a half time tech taking care of the equipment, rental to cover downtime, insurance, and some program for continuous upgrading so the kit is always state-of-the-art
- BAVC is thinking about teaching classes on how to shoot with a RED and optimal workflow, and possibly, the course could be thrown in as a deal sweetener
- we're thinking this MIGHT be an interesting solution for indie producers but not DPs, this would probably only work for Bay Area producers, and again... this is only at the concept stage

I'm thinking that since IndieRED is quoting $1350 a week for one camera, without lenses, renting is going to end up costing $10-15K for a three week shoot. This timeshare model would give us access to a camera package optimized to a typical indie producer's schedule.

So in the interest of market testing this concept, I thought I'd post it here and collect feedback about interest in such a program? If you can message me back, I'll collect the findings and report back to Ken and Wendy.

Thanks!

Moses

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I will allways try not to rent, I rented everityng my all life, now I can finally afford to buy and dispite wath many of my friends and people in the industry say, (This is a rental Industry),I will buy; as I already have my entire Tungsten Fresneli light package and some genny and grip plus an HD camcorder, I'm down for 3 RED's and will try to buy all the rest of the equipmant, including lenses as an example made by JIM, there five Primes cost less then one of ZEISS, but even if you where to rent the ZEISS set for your shoot, at end you could have purchased and pay for the entire RED's Prime set.

Yes it is a very expensive prop, but any business must have the tools to proform the job, making movies is no different, as a baker will try to buy His Ovens we, must try to buy our tools.

Ciao

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I agree Ketch, that's how I feel. It is funny to me that it's such a rental industry, but I suppose if what you are paying for is the backup and reliability of an established rental house so that if anything breaks they can come replace it on set, that makes some sense.

I think the overhead of a typical rental company is understandable but not the only business model. If you asked some indie filmmakers if they'd rather have all of those options but pay two times as much money, or have just one great package (one specific tripod that was top-of-the-line, not three or four to choose from), they would opt for the cheaper option because it isn't inferior, just less flexible. I think there is room for both options. If I'm renting my equipment, I have almost no overhead whatsoever, I'm a lot more agile and able than a big equipment rental company that has to charge for employees and their lease and their extra unused equipment, etc. That is a major downside. And for me, my downside is I wouldn't have a ton of options, I'd have just what I'm using basically, but whatever it is will be the best equipment I can find. Not cheapo stuff.

It wouldn't be too difficult for someone to rent everything else from a normal rental company and just the camera package from me to save money, either. Not to mention since my friend David will have a RED as well, that can easily serve as a backup camera most of the time.

 

[laguun]

I think the overhead of a typical rental company is understandable but not the only business model. If you asked some indie filmmakers if they'd rather have all of those options but pay two times as much money, or have just one great package (one specific tripod that was top-of-the-line, not three or four to choose from), they would opt for the cheaper option because it isn't inferior, just less flexible. I think there is room for both options. If I'm renting my equipment, I have almost no overhead whatsoever, I'm a lot more agile and able than a big equipment rental company that has to charge for employees and their lease and their extra unused equipment, etc. That is a major downside.

yes, that is true, there are smaller rental business models which work well and are sustainable. i only wanted to illustrate some of the typical calculation factors in the rental industry which reduce the profits quite a bit and force many large-scale rental corps to keep prices up. and the "indie"-market has its own set of rules anyhow.