Timecode and a cable

[Bryce W.]

Red sells a timecode cable with 2 lemo ends. I've been talking with people that say one should get a denecke or lockit box to jam sync between a 744 and Red camera. Why can't one just use a single timecode cable and have audio sync'd in this way?

 

[Ron Goodman]

Check out the Sync Bobs at the "store" at www.spacecam.com this is the ultra reliable connection and has saved literally a million production dollars

 

[nigelsmith]

Red sells a timecode cable with 2 lemo ends. I've been talking with people that say one should get a denecke or lockit box to jam sync between a 744 and Red camera. Why can't one just use a single timecode cable and have audio sync'd in this way?

I second that question!
why can't we just set either camera, or 744T to master and jam sync the other?
And which one is more reliable as master?
Thanks for any advice or info.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Why can't one just use a single timecode cable and have audio sync'd in this way?

You mean from the audio recorder to the camera, or vice versa? It would technically work, but do you really want an audio recorder lashed to the camera? No matter how long the cable is, it'll be a pain (and those Lemo connectors are not heap). It's a lot easier to put a very small box like the Denecke SB-T on a bracket and attach it on the camera, or lash it to the tripod. The advantage of the external timecode boxes is that they're rock-solid, the batteries last for days, and this way, there's no time code glitches during power cycles or crashes. And that goes for practically all timecode-capable cameras (with few exceptions).

 

[Bryce W.]

If you attact a denecke to the camera, how will a recorder pick up the timecode? Can this be done wirelessly through the denecke or lockit?

 

[David Adamic]

If you attact a denecke to the camera, how will a recorder pick up the timecode? Can this be done wirelessly through the denecke or lockit?

Sound is generally the initial timecode source. Your recorder will jam timecode to the slate and to the denecke lockit box. Lockit box will keep camera jammed. It's useful to have the camera free of tethered cables.

Most timecode cables I've seen are rather short. If at the end of this thread you still want a wire going from sound to camera I suggest a lemo to bnc on the recorder side then a bnc to lemo on the camera side. That way you can just run the majority of the connection with a bnc cable.

On a typical shooting day I'd re-jam the lockit box after lunch. If we go more than 6 hour before lunch I'll re-jam at 6 hours.

 

[Stuart English]

I second that question!
why can't we just set either camera, or 744T to master and jam sync the other?
And which one is more reliable as master?
Thanks for any advice or info.

You certainly can do that. But if you don't want any wires between the audio recorder and camera, putting a Denecke or Ambient on the camera and the audio recorder allows you to do that and still maintain timecode sync between the two recorders.

 

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

The RED timecode cable (with 2 lemos) is for the RED One

I have used this cable a lot with just a single sound device recorder... JAM sync once with the cable on camera boot up / battery change and you're good to go (unplug the cable from the camera, the jam sync icon stays on camera and never had an issue with the sync)

having a locket,aaton or other boxes is more convenient (can stay on camera for greater TC accuracy after long time, no need to call the sound guy every time you shut down or change batteries)

For the Epic you need the RED sync cable to 3 BNCs (or a small box like the sync bobs to avoid plugging/unplugging this tiny cable on the camera) and a 5pin lemo to BNC on the sound device and it should work the same...

I just wish the RED One would be able to keep the TC jam (not the gen lock) running for a few hours even when not powered up... is such a feature planned/possible on EPIC ?

 

[Alan Skinner]

If I can jump in here and ask a question;

In planning for using SD 702T with EPIC (once I get it) I might want to use the Ambient Clockit box (the ACL 204 looks very interesting) and if I do that, does anyone know if I will be able to sync to MovieSlate iPad app? Has anyone done this?

Please keep in mind that I am new to audio recording for imagery. (I have some background with recording studio for music)

Thanks for any input anyone might have on this question.

 

[kevin holmgren]

Ever figure out how to get MovieSlate to play nicely with Red?

 

[Marc Wielage]

MovieSlate is only as accurate as the crystal used to provide timecode, which the developer warns. It's not a complete solution, especially compared to real timecode slates like Ambient's or Denecke's.

I always point out that I can drop a Denecke slate 3 feet to a concrete sidewalk and have it still work; not so true with an iPad. The Denecke slate is readable in direct sunlight; not so true with an iPad. And so on.

I love MovieSlate's sound mixer option for notes and channel assignments for sound reports, and think this is a very useful purpose, especially for scripted projects. But not great as a slate, unless you have perfect wireless timecode (via Zaxcom or Timecode Buddy), and optimum circumstances (rare, at least on the kind of projects I encounter).

 

[Mondo Ghulam]

Hey Guys,

for what it's worth, I'm using the TimeCodeBuddy Wifi Master. With this I jam-sync the Scarlet, send live timecode to MovieSlate and my slightly low-budget approach to TC on the audio side is to record the timecode as audio to track 6 on the Tascam DR680. I use wav2bvf to convert the audio TC to TC proper. Obviously if you're using the SoundDevices recorders with TC, you can skip that last step.

With this I've had zero slippage between the Scarlet and audio after about 9 hours of jamming the camera, if there were any slippage it must be < 1f.

 

[alex herter]

Hey guys,
I am trying to sync an Epic with a Sound Devices 552, Decode GR-1 and Decode TS-2sb smart slate. I'm sure this is a rather newbish question. I feel like I am not connecting something right or changing a setting to get the devices to talk to each other. Looking into this I haven't found anything that has a step by step breakdown of the signal flow between devices or creating an effective time code sync. Any advice or website resources that actually does this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Dave Blackham]

We can TC lock Epic with an Ambient ACL203 or ACL204 for an external lock or use Jumpstart TC from an iPhone to set the TC generator or jam it from a sound devices recorder. The ACL204 works best but so long as you re jam after a battery change then the internal generator runs fine. We must do some tests to verify battery change does affect the TC clock but theres no reason in this day and age why it should.

 

[James McLellan]

I have the 744t and an Epic and the jam sync cable. I tested the jam sync feature and it worked...on a few clips in a controlled environment. Once we went to production we jam synced in the morning and by lunch it was way out. We found stopping to jam sync with the sync input where it is on the Epic took a ridiculously long time and the connector ends are very small. It occured to me that it might not take that long before one end gets damaged.

I have since started looking into lockit boxes but part of me thinks it's old technology, especially considering that even they drift after 8 hours. I am wondering if Pluraleyes and scratch audio is a better solution. I would think after 18 hours the waveforms would still be in sync with Pluraleyes. I am waiting for someone to explain why my thinking is wrong.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I have since started looking into lockit boxes but part of me thinks it's old technology, especially considering that even they drift after 8 hours. I am wondering if Pluraleyes and scratch audio is a better solution.

I always try to use the "belt and suspenders" route on my shoot, and provide a Denecke SB-T timecode box and a wireless scratch track whenever possible. Whether the editor chooses to sync up my tracks with timecode or with Plural Eyes, either way will work, and they can go with whatever way works for them.

As long as the crew goes with external code all day, or at least remembers to jam every so often, it can work just fine. I use custom cables designed specifically for camera placement to stay out of the way and yet puts no strain on the connectors. I still try to rejam about 5-6 hours, just to make sure the slate, the recorder, and the SB-T are all phase accurate in terms of timecode.

 

[Christopher Mills]

The tv series and feature shows I have worked on have given 2 choices.
1)Sony/Lifetime, BET shows, and VH1 Sync a Lockit and a slate at camera prep time (each morning) with fresh batteries, and hand it to camera dept to live attached to camera to wrap
2) Studio features a couple years ago Re jam the lockits and slate at lunch, reattach the boxes to camera.

Post theory was the boxes drifted at a predicatable rate for the shows that left the boxes alone all shooting day.

These boxes are much more stable than the cameras, and sync compensation for dailies was considered manageable by post.

TC is very accurate, but not absolute. We use it anyway, since producers are now too young to remember how sync was done before 35mm cameras and Nagra tape had tc.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Very wise words from Chris above. :iagree: