Thoughts on the Panavision Millennium DXL

[Phil Holland]

While we don't necessarily need a new thread on the topic, I have some thoughts and photographs to share after fondling it rather aggressively at Cine Gear 2016 and perhaps a unique perspective on this collaboration. Also, I took in a lot of feedback from various shooters, ASC Members, and RED owner/operators and have some points to cover.




Panavision

First I want to talk a bit about Panavision. Panavision was founded in 1953, interestingly enough during a decade when the VistaVision format was invented and used by filmmakers seeking out something "more". Over time PV became essentially the industry leader when it came to anamorphic lenses. Fast forward to modern times Panavision has grown into an entity that provides their lenses, equipment, and support to productions word-wide.

PV has had several camera developments over the years. Millennium XL and Genesis come to mind as important film and digital advancements. As digital cinema cameras advanced and became more available it has been commonplace for Panavision to look at the various camera systems and to accessorize them in a way that many feel is optimal for production use. Thus the term "Panavised" was born.


A "Panavised" RED Epic Dragon at Cine Gear 2015 (one year ago today)

Panavision rents a lot of different camera models and they own a fleet's worth of RED Digital Cinema Cameras. Over the past few years Panavision was developing a 65mm digital cinema camera, a camera that the Primo 70 Series were designed "ideally" for. However, that project turned into a long twisted journey that at roads end left them with some gorgeous lens designs ideal for large format cinematography and no large format Panavision digital cinema camera to use them on. The lenses however would find their way onto various digital cinema cameras and be used on a whole bunch of productions.


Enter the Dragon



I really can't boldly underline how important the RED Dragon Sensor Technology has been. It's Color, Dynamic Range, and Film Format to Resolution Relevance has been a rather massive splash across the industry. It's improved upon Mysterium-X in every way and filmmakers and studios have taken note of that. The technological advancements of the DSMC2 camera bodies have also squeezed more fire out of the Dragon. Now with the top of the line 8K Dragon Sensor at 40.96x21.60 we have for the first time a digital cinema format size that's slightly larger than VistaVision and slightly taller than Super 35mm Motion Picture film formats that syncs up with the growing desire to explore other formats while providing a decent digital/film analog. This oozes potential as the RED system is indeed multi-format. You can shoot 5K and get your S35 equivalent, shoot 8K and get something in the realm of larger format VistaVision+, and perhaps most importantly to PV in 7K through 8K resolutions very "proper" S35 anamorphic filming.


The Panavision Millennium DXL



As we've seen with Fincher's Xenomorph RED Cameras, custom bodies with custom features can be achieved by RED. In the case of the PV DXL we have a collaboration between Panavision, RED, and Light Iron to provide a unique imagining system for Panavision's clients with a unique flavor to the image itself. There's some rather interesting online and in person conversation regarding how much of RED or how much of Panavision/LI is in there, the true answer is both or all of the above. There is simply much more than a RED Sensor inside the DXL body. It's essentially in many ways a Weapon 8K with an internal and external Panavised effort. A collaboration like this doesn't exactly balance with weights placed on one side of the scale. These cameras have been and will be built to specification by RED and are under ongoing development until their release for production use later this year.


The PV DXL Specs:

- Large Format/High Resolution 40.96x21.60mm/8192x4320 16-bit 35.5 Megapixel CMOS
- 15 Stops of Total Captured Dynamic Range (PV's number)
- 60 fps at 8K Full Frame (8192 x 4320), 75 fps at 8K 2.4:1 (8192 x 3456)
- 8K RAW with simultaneous 4K proxy (ProRes or DNx)
- SSD (up to 1 hour on a single magazine)
- .R3D (supported in RED SDK)
- Light Iron Color (compatible with all popular gamuts and transfer curves)
- Body Weight = 10 lbs.
- 6 independent video outputs
- Supports 6 independent 1D LUTs or up to 4 independent 3D LUTs
- Directly motorize Primo 70 lenses through wireless control
- Built in wirelesss timecode for genlock (Ambient Control Network)
- Dual Menus (Operator side, Assistant side)
- Advanced airflow system for superior temperature management
- Custom cheeseplate with integrated electronics
- Modular and tooless quick changeover accessories


Taking a square look at that we have the basic features of a RED Weapon 8K camera with built in support for additional features. In many ways this is like slugging everything you'd get from certain 3rd parties into one camera body. Similar to what Offhollywood's OMOD, Titla, and others are developing in Expanders that can attach to DSMC2 bodies. However, this bounty of features is Panavision's vision from the ground up.

I have to say that personally Wireless Timecode and Genlock are two of the most important and useful features out of the lot. This is something that will speed up big productions in major ways. I also think the pure wireless and quick to deploy focus and iris controls for the Primo 70 Series will be a joy to use. They had that working at Cine Gear. It was very, very impressive.


Menus, Buttons, and Body Design





The menu system is a light overhaul of the typical RED DSMC2 menus with a focus on menu panels with buttons and dials for Operator and Assistant Side of Camera use. Take note there are indeed 2X "cable-less" LCD/EVF connections and you can indeed navigate and operate via those as well. You can basically operate this thing anyway you'd like.




As for the body itself, it's been designed for production use. It does fit on the shoulder well even with a Primo 70 Prime and Matte Box. It's insane that the base weight of the camera is only 10lbs. That's a tremendous achievement with all of this built in. The intake and outtake fans are both on the top and the shoulder mount doesn't occlude airflow.

I spoke to many notable shooters over these last few days. Most are very impressed with the body design, shape, and weight. Even the general camera operation. Panavision and RED did a great job here.

Actually, to take this to a further level. The DXL is the most advanced digital cinema camera ever made, but can operate in a familiar way that is friendly to Operators and Assistants. This is a big achievement.


Light Iron Color, Color Science, and OLPFs

One very notable thing about the DXL is Light Iron's involvement in developing unique to Panavision "Light Iron Color". The DXL will actually use proprietary media that will embed Light Iron Color at the sensor level that can be utilized in 3rd party applications. In tandem with this Panavision is currently developing their own OLPF Technology. I spoke to Michael Cioni a bit about what the goals are here. Overall and initially Light Iron Color will be developed towards the common trends in modern motion pictures. My personal take on this? The combination between Light Iron Color and this new OLPF will be designed to produce a very film-like/modern-ish look out of the camera. Vibrant, rich, and deep color that will be unique to Panavision and the DXL.

I've noticed many wanting to tap into what Light Iron is whipping up under the hood here, but you must be aware that this is part of Panavision's strategy with this camera. This will not be something available to owner/operators. This is something that will be available to Panavision clients however.

I can't stress enough. With the Dragon Sensor, REDCODE RAW, RED's OLPFs, and even 3rd Party OLPFs you can create your own look and/or 3D LUTs that provide something unique for your clients. It's something I've been doing for years primarily with 3D LUTs mainly to lean towards common Kodak stock emulation after carefully reading in the tonal and color response of each medium.

Light Iron's Color will indeed be excellent and unique. They have some very bright minds working hard during this ongoing development.

The footage shown at Cine Gear 2016 was very impressive. Detailed landscapes with varying hues, tricky dynamic lighting conditions, and plenty of skin tones. This particular effort was Light Iron's current color progress with the RED OLPFs.

 

[Phil Holland]

Dragon 8K, Panavision Lenses, and Formats




Something that became apparent to me when RED announced the 8K Dragon sensor was the impressive amount of creative potential behind this particular sensor size. Looking at it in relationship to the lenses that Panavision offers inspires a lot possible lens combinations. This sensor works will with 65mm glass, 35mm glass, 2X-1.25X Anamorphic glass. As much as the focus has been with the Primo 70 series, I think there's even more potential with 2X anamorphic glass as you can get a proper 4K/8K-5K/10K anamorphic image using the S35 or even S35+ area on the image plane.


Overall, this camera is a total solution for modern productions. Expect a host of educational events to help DPs, Ops, and ACs to get up to speed with the DXL in the coming months. And expect quality and interesting images coming out of these cameras. It's a very exciting time for digital cinema production.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Nicely put Phil,

Loved the way this camera has been conceived and put together, and seen it first hand made a clear difference on what you see on paper and photos... This has been a fantastic move on all involved!

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Any idea if owner/ops will be able to rent PV glass with the appropriate lens mount in order to use these great lenses? The slick design, Li Color and so on is obviously part of PV's unique value add - but are they also going to keep their lenses "behind the curtain"? I fear the answer is that PV wants to protect their entire proprietary ecosystem, which I understand.

Perhaps I'll just have to go to my grave wishing I could have put PV glass on my 8K CF Weapon...

Cheers - #19

 

[Manfred Lopez]

Thanks Phil. That was a great write-up. I wonder what the rental price will be for a complete package. I just hope it's not completely horrendously expensive so indie productions can afford it.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

I can't stress enough. With the Dragon Sensor, REDCODE RAW, RED's OLPFs, and even 3rd Party OLPFs you can create your own look and/or 3D LUTs that provide something unique for your clients. It's something I've been doing for years primarily with 3D LUTs mainly to lean towards common Kodak stock emulation after carefully reading in the tonal and color response of each medium.

Phil, this really caught my attention. What resource would you recommend for diving into the world of custom 3D LUTs?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Nice summary

I've noticed many wanting to tap into what Light Iron is whipping up under the hood here, but you must be aware that this is part of Panavision's strategy with this camera. This will not be something available to owner/operators. This is something that will be available to Panavision clients however.

I can't stress enough. With the Dragon Sensor, REDCODE RAW, RED's OLPFs, and even 3rd Party OLPFs you can create your own look and/or 3D LUTs that provide something unique for your clients. It's something I've been doing for years primarily with 3D LUTs mainly to lean towards common Kodak stock emulation after carefully reading in the tonal and color response of each medium.

I believe I'm guilty in these requests, however I understand that it's part of the package. I'm wondering though if we would see anything new from Red themselves in this regard. There's been a long time since we got any improvements to the color science in Red. But I'm curious, if Light Iron did the color science on a sensor level, how could we do 3D luts with "our own" color science. Don't we need access to the sensor on a deeper level than just doing a LUT in post?

 

[M.Halsell]

Phil thanks for the DXL wrap up. It was difficult not to walk away impressed with the combined effort of PV, RED and LI. Also, it puts a fine point that the color effort by-in-large is for the benefit of Panavision's clientele. As you mentioned, the opportunity for any RED owner is open to create their own color matrix for the benefit of their clients or shooting style.

Sidebar, was there any indication that Panavision would publicly post any of the presentation footage?

 

[Brody_B]

I'm just proud to own the younger brother of what I hope to see as the new major motion go to.

 

[Michael J Brennan]

he DXL will actually use proprietary media that will embed Light Iron Color at the sensor level

Thanks for the detailed write up.

How does recording media effect sensor level output?

Is the raw image component of R3D any different to Weapon? (Flags encryption aside?)

There is a lack of clarity from Panavision regarding where Light Iron colour science is inserted in the image chain.


Mike Brennan

 

[jordan levy]

i noticed it also has the mysterious M3 ports as well, of course they wouldnt tell me what they were either, but they did tell me you'd be able to use red mini mags, but they would have their own with panavsion branding on it.
no blair, you cant rent PV glass with out a panavision camera.
i actually have a 35mm handcrank camera with a removable panavision lens mount that panavsion made for me back in the day!
they are and always were into helping and doing custom stuff for clients.

 

[Bob Gundu]

This is the trojan horse Red needed to be taken seriously in big productions. My feeling is that this is 97% Dragon Weapon still but with the confidence and reputation of Panavision behind it. Whatever it takes to get DPs using a Weapon is awesome. The ergonomics make so much sense and with Light Iron behind workflow is killer. The is the beginning of something spectacular.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

So Phil I must have missed Dominick saying that they will have their own media. So Red MiniMags will not work on the PV camera?

And what I find most interesting from a non Red standpoint is that Panavision decided to go with VistaVision size 8K which speaks to their commitment to glass both large format and anamorphic which has always been their strong point. I have to say the announcement at the ASC clubhouse luncheon Thursday took me by surprise. Good for both PV/Lifght Iron and Red for keeping such a big secret

 

[Phil Holland]

Any idea if owner/ops will be able to rent PV glass with the appropriate lens mount in order to use these great lenses? The slick design, Li Color and so on is obviously part of PV's unique value add - but are they also going to keep their lenses "behind the curtain"? I fear the answer is that PV wants to protect their entire proprietary ecosystem, which I understand.

Perhaps I'll just have to go to my grave wishing I could have put PV glass on my 8K CF Weapon...

You don't necessarily have to go to your grave with those feelings. The Primo 70 Series on Guardians are all attached to 8K Weapons. And Panavision has various mounts for DSMC/DSMC2 bodies. The key with Panavision is that they'd prefer you to rent their glass and their cameras. There are special instances where they make exceptions. Especially for certain DPs. In the case of the Series 70 though you need an optical plug (at the moment) in front of the OLPF or built into the OLPF. I think they are going to solve this at the lens level shortly. Can't remember. The newer T Series Anamorphics protrude fairly deep in the mount as well.

Long at the short, Panavision would be happy to rent you a camera with their glass.

Thanks Phil. That was a great write-up. I wonder what the rental price will be for a complete package. I just hope it's not completely horrendously expensive so indie productions can afford it.

Now that is indeed the curious question. I didn't bother asking as we're a few miles/months away from these things being used on set. Panavision's rates depend on so many factors, but I'd say you won't be seeing this kit with glass under mid four figures anytime soon.

Pricing the Weapon 8K is also a tricky beast as the only that even comes close to it is a fairly pricey day rate.

Phil, this really caught my attention. What resource would you recommend for diving into the world of custom 3D LUTs?

Tough to say. There's probably good literature out now on the subject. There wasn't much in the early 2000s when we started using them at R&H.

My best advice at a basic starting point is to get comfortable with any grading software that allows you to export a 3D LUT, which is pretty much everything. Resolve is a very nice place to start. Get intimate with various Color and Gamma Spaces as well as the various standards, Rec.709 for example. There's a lot of things to avoid when creating LUTs, mostly due to taking things way too far. So be cautious.

In terms of method and technique, studying Color Theory is very useful. It's also useful from a Gaffer and DP perspective.

Nice summary

I believe I'm guilty in these requests, however I understand that it's part of the package. I'm wondering though if we would see anything new from Red themselves in this regard. There's been a long time since we got any improvements to the color science in Red. But I'm curious, if Light Iron did the color science on a sensor level, how could we do 3D luts with "our own" color science. Don't we need access to the sensor on a deeper level than just doing a LUT in post?

It's okay to ask Crhistoffer as it is indeed a valid question. This is Panavision and Light Iron making something that is exclusive to them however. Something that has it's own "character". The short answer to the question is that it depends on what you are trying to do. Because Panavision is doing several levels of "things", including a new OLPF that doesn't exist yet, it's totally difficult to say how close or far away we can get via the REDCODE RAW as it stands today.

I would bet overall, we can get damn close. It's honestly too early to tell as things are still in development. Once we see what everything ends up being near the end of the year we'll know for sure. In terms of the demonstration footage at the show with Light Iron's Color and RED's OLPFs, yes we can match everything I saw.

And yes there will be productions where DXLs and Weapons play together nicely. Think drones for instance.

Also, remember that you currently have very good color with RED's current Color Science and OLPFs. And you have the option to jump into 3rd party OLPFs if you are looking for something more flavored. Remember Color Science, what we can do with REDCODE RAW, and our cameras in general is a constantly evolving story.

Phil thanks for the DXL wrap up. It was difficult not to walk away impressed with the combined effort of PV, RED and LI. Also, it puts a fine point that the color effort by-in-large is for the benefit of Panavision's clientele. As you mentioned, the opportunity for any RED owner is open to create their own color matrix for the benefit of their clients or shooting style.

Sidebar, was there any indication that Panavision would publicly post any of the presentation footage?

Don't know if they'll publish the short they demonstrated on the Christie 4K projector. In particular the flares from the new T series caught my eye with Keanu riding his motorcycle crew through tunnels. Skin looked great on the close ups. Landscapes were vibrant. There's this little vignette they made:

Overall much of what Mitch Amundsen and Dean Semler had to say syncs up nicely with my experiences with Weapon 8K.

I'm just proud to own the younger brother of what I hope to see as the new major motion go to.

That is the tremendous thing about what RED has done with the current lineup and it's a very different concept compared to other manufacturers.

Thanks for the detailed write up.

How does recording media effect sensor level output?

Is the raw image component of R3D any different to Weapon? (Flags encryption aside?)

There is a lack of clarity from Panavision regarding where Light Iron colour science is inserted in the image chain.

The recording media doesn't effect sensor level output. The DXL will have special Panavision MINI-MAGs essentially that are necessary to use everything that Light Iron is putting forth with the camera. There will be a different look to the REDCODE RAW based on the in development OLPF optical component as well as Light Iron's Color.

So Phil I must have missed Dominick saying that they will have their own media. So Red MiniMags will not work on the PV camera?

And what I find most interesting from a non Red standpoint is that Panavision decided to go with VistaVision size 8K which speaks to their commitment to glass both large format and anamorphic which has always been their strong point. I have to say the announcement at the ASC clubhouse luncheon Thursday took me by surprise. Good for both PV/Lifght Iron and Red for keeping such a big secret

Yep, that's what I've been told by 3 people. But heck, things could change. I think it will be PV DXL branded media though. And I think there will be something software side that will likely notify the shooters of the difference. Too hard to tell until everything is bolted to the floor. Everybody did a great job of keeping this very quiet. It's a fairly ground breaking announcement for every company involved.

 

[jordan levy]

So Phil I must have missed Dominick saying that they will have their own media. So Red MiniMags will not work on the PV camera?

And what I find most interesting from a non Red standpoint is that Panavision decided to go with VistaVision size 8K which speaks to their commitment to glass both large format and anamorphic which has always been their strong point. I have to say the announcement at the ASC clubhouse luncheon Thursday took me by surprise. Good for both PV/Lifght Iron and Red for keeping such a big secret

i was actually told by Dan Sasaki at panavision that it WILL take red mini mags 512 and higher but the ones they will provide with the camera will be pananvision branded mini mags,but the ones i own will work. then i asked the same question to another rep while standing next to michael and reiterated the same thing and michael nodded his head.
but you never know, things change, change and change.

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

General

General

>>Also, I took in a lot of feedback from various shooters, ASC Members, and RED owner/operators and have some points to cover.

Will it cover 3D? I would love to make or see a 3D movie with those anamorphic lenses.

I am sure this will benefit indirectly all Red owners but I like to know of the direct benefits as well.

I'm not talking only about the Weapon owners but the Dragon and the rest.

 

[Michael J Brennan]

There will be a different look to the REDCODE RAW based on the in development OLPF optical component as well as Light Iron's Color.

Putting optics to one side.

I refer to alterations to firmware or software in connection with remapping the AD or of anything else that alters the character of the raw output.

Have light iron tinkered with the sensor?


Michael Brennan

 

[Nick Morrison]

Great write up - thanks Phil!!

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm surprised by a certain creeping paranoia that seems to be coming up regarding this camera...

As far as I know, it's the Red sensor, ASIC, etc. so I would assume most image adjustments are not being done in the raw signal other than whatever effect a new OPLF/IR filter will have (when completed) and whatever image noise consistency and control happens due to a more robust cooling system. Otherwise, it seems to be a tweak to the Red color science according to LightIron's and Panavision's taste to create images that they feel will color-correct easier because they fall into place quicker.

So whether those changes create a noticeable alteration to the Red 8K Weapon image or not probably depends on how sensitive you are to such things. To one person, it may feel like a major change and to another, it may seem minor. I have no idea until someone shoots a comparison between a Panavision Millennium DXL and an an 8K Red Weapon (ideally using the same lens) but I suspect that the images will not be as far as apart as some people think. But there might be a lot of operational advantages to the DXL for Hollywood production that set the camera apart. I also suspect that Panavision will make some adjustments to 8K Red Weapon camera bodies so they can be used as B-cameras on a DXL shoot, with the same OPLF and color science loaded in, but otherwise a Red Weapon that is small enough to use on drones, gimbals, etc.

 

[Akin A]

Can somebody explain what's currently considered "Large Format" and "Medium Format"?
DXL is advertised as "Large Format" and it uses the 8K Dragon sensor, which is 40.96 x 21.60 mm.

According to Wikipedia, "Large Format" is 102×127 mm and "Medium Format" is larger than 24x36mm, but smaller than Large Format.

Also, why is Panavision stating 15 stops on 8K Dragon, while RED states 16.5+ stops?

Some more explanation on how this is so much more advanced Weapon Dragon 8K would help too.