Thoughts on the future of Scarlet and its Package...

[Anthony Rinaldi]

The Dual Battery Module will cost $1,250 until 1.1.12. To make that work, you also need the Module Adapter which costs $300. So, until 1.1.12, this route would "cost less" for the customer but still cost RED more during the time before the price hikes.

Upon the 1.1.12 date, the two options will cost identically due to the Battery Module going up in price by $200

Ah, forgot to take into account the price increase and adapter...

 

[Philipe Ratton]

"FF" stands for Fuzzy Focus.:sifone:

Post of the day

 

[Todd C. Deveau]

I doubt its possible all things considered, but if RED could keep the price of the fixed package (with components shown in Tonaci's orginal "working" video and all the subsequent vids with Ted) ~$6k I'd be ecstatic. I'd love to add a Scarlet to my arsenal to augment my [tiny] business. If the price of the package goes up too much, given the price increase of the side handle, I'd like to maybe see it be optional as far as the Scarlet fixed package is concerned. That $800 jump is pretty significant for a lot of people considering Scarlet and realistically I don't see myself using it enough for video to justify the cost. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if it kept the package price down significantly, I could probably do without it as long as I had the LCD, REDMOTE, and an alternate source for power. If the side handle was optional I could always pick up one later if I found myself needing it. There was also talk in another thread of the possibility of a dumb handle with only a record on/off button that might be good for the package to keep costs down.

Anyway, it's just a thought. If the fixed package price goes up too much I'll stick to buying DSLR stuff (all my jobs right now are stills jobs anyway so it makes sense for me) and then further down the road pick up a scarlet interchangeable when it comes along to use with my nikon glass/red mini primes. As primarily a stills shooter (and full time graduate student in a completely unrelated field) my wants/needs are probably different than most redusers. Hopefully, given the latest updates on Epic-M and Epic-X production and supply chains we'll hear something soon! Thanks again for all your hard work red team regarding the DMSC system...

 

[John Caballero]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

 

[brian hanson]

i think it's painfully obvious that the cost of a working scarlet 8x fixed package is going to exceed 10k. epic x just increased by 25% and Jannard cited the tragedy in Japan as part of the reason, we know that scarlet 8x also relies on some of the parts from Japan therefore we shouldn't be surprised when the 25% increase shows up again.

 

[Nuka Wølk]

i think it's painfully obvious that the cost of a working scarlet 8x fixed package is going to exceed 10k. epic x just increased by 25% and Jannard cited the tragedy in Japan as part of the reason, we know that scarlet 8x also relies on some of the parts from Japan therefore we shouldn't be surprised when the 25% increase shows up again.

I personally think it will exceed a 25% increase, but if a 25% increase will be the case - then that is still an incredible price!!

 

[Steven Dean]

Wonder if RED would consider moving the Epic-S production overseas to keep the cost down? I was originally in the market for Scarlet, but ultimately decided on Epic-S instead, and started to accumulate some beautiful Nikon glass, which I am currently using, but probably would have held off on...

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Wonder if RED would consider moving the Epic-S production overseas to keep the cost down? I was originally in the market for Scarlet, but ultimately decided on Epic-S instead, and started to accumulate some beautiful Nikon glass, which I am currently using, but probably would have held off on...

It WAS moved from Japan/China/Taiwan (wherever it was supposed to have been made) to USA. So it's very unlikely they'll move it back again.

 

[David Rasberry]

Differences in labor cost per unit on an efficient electronics assembly line are not as great as one might think between here and Asia. There was a story about Apple that pegged the manufacturing cost difference here vs there for an Ipad 2 at $3.
An engineer I dealt with on a new type of digital CATV distribution amplifier told me they moved production from China to Florida because QC problems cost them more than the difference in labor costs. So while the labor cost might appear considerably higher here at first glance, other factors can potentially offset much of the difference.

For a modest production volume high performance product like Epic or Scarlet where manufacturing tolerances are likely to be critically tight, whether it is built here or there may not make that much difference in the final price.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Differences in labor cost per unit on an efficient electronics assembly line are not as great as one might think between here and Asia. There was a story about Apple that pegged the manufacturing cost difference here vs there for an Ipad 2 at $3.
An engineer I dealt with on a new type of digital CATV distribution amplifier told me they moved production from China to Florida because QC problems cost them more than the difference in labor costs. So while the labor cost might appear considerably higher here at first glance, other factors can potentially offset much of the difference.

For a modest production volume high performance product like Epic or Scarlet where manufacturing tolerances are likely to be critically tight, whether it is built here or there may not make that much difference in the final price.

Extremely interesting post, thank you

 

[Richard_JP]

Hi Joseph, I just read through your post and I have to say, I am perplexed as to why someone would create a thread like this. It starts off great, because I assumed that it was referring to the Scarlet cinema, as I was always under the impression that the fixed was an "out of the box, ready to shoot camera," therefore, theoretically you wouldn't have to purchase more equipment to shoot on the Scarlet (albeit limited to batteries and media). In your list above, you're kinda stating that that isn't the case. Is that correct? As far as I was aware, the last that we heard was that the Scarlet fixed PACKAGE was going to cost around $5,750. Have I missed an update regarding this?

What I can't get my head around is why you'd start a thread that actively encourages the price increase of a camera that you're planning to purchase (I assume that you will be buying this camera)? It's like going to a car dealer, where you've seen a bargain motor and saying "dude, this car is worth twice what you're asking for it. If I were you, I'd charge me at least another $2k." I assume yo wouldn't do that, even if the car was a bargain?

I think it's great that you're so excited about this camera and that you can't fathom how they are producing at such a low price, but I guess for some of the potential Scarlet customers, they will be stretching budget for what they believe to be the best tool for their money. I don't think it's fair to ostracize people that want the best tool on the market, just because they have less money. After all, those people are only here and looking at RED for one reason, marketing. And the marketing led those people to believe that they could finally obtain a cinema level camera at a price they could afford.

You're obviously more in the loop than the rest with regards to the development of the Scarlet, and that leads me to believe that this post has a slight undertone to it. Are these new prices that you're quoting maybe something that you've heard on the grapevine? Are we being primed to a major price increase? Maybe this is a useful research tool to see how many people are going to oppose another price increase?

Before I get bashed for this post, please read through what I have written. I am in fact giving huge props to a company I admire. I absolutely want the Scarlet, and yes I agree that it could be argued that the Scarlet is worth ten times the price of whatever it sells for. But wasn't it RED's ambition to blow this market apart and finally give reasonably priced cinema quality cameras to film makers?

Just my opinion

 

[Roshdi Alkadri]

Hi Joseph, I just read through your post and I have to say, I am perplexed as to why someone would create a thread like this. It starts off great, because I assumed that it was referring to the Scarlet cinema, as I was always under the impression that the fixed was an "out of the box, ready to shoot camera," therefore, theoretically you wouldn't have to purchase more equipment to shoot on the Scarlet (albeit limited to batteries and media). In your list above, you're kinda stating that that isn't the case. Is that correct? As far as I was aware, the last that we heard was that the Scarlet fixed PACKAGE was going to cost around $5,750. Have I missed an update regarding this?

What I can't get my head around is why you'd start a thread that actively encourages the price increase of a camera that you're planning to purchase (I assume that you will be buying this camera)? It's like going to a car dealer, where you've seen a bargain motor and saying "dude, this car is worth twice what you're asking for it. If I were you, I'd charge me at least another $2k." I assume yo wouldn't do that, even if the car was a bargain?

I think it's great that you're so excited about this camera and that you can't fathom how they are producing at such a low price, but I guess for some of the potential Scarlet customers, they will be stretching budget for what they believe to be the best tool for their money. I don't think it's fair to ostracize people that want the best tool on the market, just because they have less money. After all, those people are only here and looking at RED for one reason, marketing. And the marketing led those people to believe that they could finally obtain a cinema level camera at a price they could afford.

You're obviously more in the loop than the rest with regards to the development of the Scarlet, and that leads me to believe that this post has a slight undertone to it. Are these new prices that you're quoting maybe something that you've heard on the grapevine? Are we being primed to a major price increase? Maybe this is a useful research tool to see how many people are going to oppose another price increase?

Before I get bashed for this post, please read through what I have written. I am in fact giving huge props to a company I admire. I absolutely want the Scarlet, and yes I agree that it could be argued that the Scarlet is worth ten times the price of whatever it sells for. But wasn't it RED's ambition to blow this market apart and finally give reasonably priced cinema quality cameras to film makers?

Just my opinion

Nice post and i also agree. The price increase that the scarlet has from its original projected price of 3k is good enough. Another price increase wouldn't be good.

 

[Nathaniel Haban]

+1 on Richard's post.

I myself said a scarlet package would be a great deal for 10K, but in the back of my mind, I was wincing, thinking: "please don't let RED's sales team read this." A 4 or 5 thousand bump in price would be very difficult to work into my budget. Law of averages says I'm not the only one in that boat.

I understand that no company would sell their product at a loss, so if it costs more to produce than the original package price, of course we'll see a price increase. But RED has to know that for every price increase, other options start looking more and more attractive.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

Yes, Richard. That is a valid post of yours to consider.

First off, the things I spoke of have no bearing on anything I have heard from RED that the public hasn't heard as well.

My intentions were/are to wake people up to what reality may possibly very well be. I can't exactly agree with you that the F-Scarlet has always been intended to be an "out of the box, ready to shoot camera" much more than what every other camera model from RED. I only saw the difference that you didn't have to add lenses. Long ago, it was mentioned that there would be a "package price" for a kit with the FIXED Scarlet...but so has the Cinema Scarlet (even though for some reason it hasn't been such a widely known piece of info).

As far as your concern that I may be making this thread to "feel out the waters" and see what kind of public reaction there would be to a price increase, I can rest assure you that that is not the case at all.

With all of this being said, there are many people who seem to expect me to be right. RED has an opportunity to still prove people like me wrong. I don't want there to be another price hike. However, I do expect the price to be lower at release and then a price hike to go in effect shortly afterwards (such as what we are seeing with the EPIC).

There's no reason for anyone to be disgruntled with your post, and I appreciate people like you aren't afraid to share their thoughts in a kind and respectful way...

 

[paulherrin]

it must be a conspiracy. red is scamming us right?

 

[Tim Nitsch]

As far as your concern that I may be making this thread to "feel out the waters" and see what kind of public reaction there would be to a price increase, I can rest assure you that that is not the case at all.

That's not to say someone from RED might come in here and see that you said you are willing to pay $10k and stick that price tag on it just because they know people are willing to pay that.

I'm not saying RED is like that but if you owned a company and found out that people would pay more for your product, could anyone fault you for jacking your prices up especially when you haven't already set a price and theres no competition? That's just smart business IMO.

 

[Nuka Wølk]

Hi Joseph, I just read through your post and I have to say, I am perplexed as to why someone would create a thread like this. It starts off great, because I assumed that it was referring to the Scarlet cinema, as I was always under the impression that the fixed was an "out of the box, ready to shoot camera," therefore, theoretically you wouldn't have to purchase more equipment to shoot on the Scarlet (albeit limited to batteries and media). In your list above, you're kinda stating that that isn't the case. Is that correct? As far as I was aware, the last that we heard was that the Scarlet fixed PACKAGE was going to cost around $5,750. Have I missed an update regarding this?

What I can't get my head around is why you'd start a thread that actively encourages the price increase of a camera that you're planning to purchase (I assume that you will be buying this camera)? It's like going to a car dealer, where you've seen a bargain motor and saying "dude, this car is worth twice what you're asking for it. If I were you, I'd charge me at least another $2k." I assume yo wouldn't do that, even if the car was a bargain?

I think it's great that you're so excited about this camera and that you can't fathom how they are producing at such a low price, but I guess for some of the potential Scarlet customers, they will be stretching budget for what they believe to be the best tool for their money. I don't think it's fair to ostracize people that want the best tool on the market, just because they have less money. After all, those people are only here and looking at RED for one reason, marketing. And the marketing led those people to believe that they could finally obtain a cinema level camera at a price they could afford.

You're obviously more in the loop than the rest with regards to the development of the Scarlet, and that leads me to believe that this post has a slight undertone to it. Are these new prices that you're quoting maybe something that you've heard on the grapevine? Are we being primed to a major price increase? Maybe this is a useful research tool to see how many people are going to oppose another price increase?

Before I get bashed for this post, please read through what I have written. I am in fact giving huge props to a company I admire. I absolutely want the Scarlet, and yes I agree that it could be argued that the Scarlet is worth ten times the price of whatever it sells for. But wasn't it RED's ambition to blow this market apart and finally give reasonably priced cinema quality cameras to film makers?

Just my opinion

There is no conspiracy. RED is not trying to fool anyone - quite the opposite I think: they might in fact be fooling themselves! Whatever the price will be - it'll still be a lot of bang for your buck. And that is what I truly believe was the reason behind the thread - to point out the evolution of the SCARLET since it's announcement and to point out the estimated good deal that it most likely still will be - of course they can't satisfy EVERYONE, that's just unrealistic. I myself have pointed out the "unpopular" point countless times for people who still seem to expect an unrealistic price for the camera that it is now - and not several years ago.

Your car-dealer example is not appropriate in this context. RED is a professional motion picture camera company - they make the best digital cinema cameras in the business. And yeah, one of their ambitions are to give as many filmmakers as possible the chance to work with their state of the art cameras. SCARLET will be no exception. It IS now a professional camera - not the camera that it once was. I personally believe that the estimated 6K price point(that never was an official price!) has always been unrealistic - even for their very honorable ambition! Remember, it was put out back when the CF-side module was default and before the whole supply issue. Things have changed - face it.

To be realistic you have to expect a price increase or you will probably be disappointed (that is if your still expecting fantasy-low prices with no regards to reality).

Joseph was just trying to explain the radical evolution of the SCARLET and where the SCARLET is NOW - and what his estimated "face-the-facts-and-be-realistic"-package price might look like.

Relax people - RED will still amaze you with the price, I'm sure of it - but a price more in terms with reality than with the initial dream and vision. My advice: expect an increase in price but it'll still be a damn good deal when you realize what you in fact will get!

Try to look at it in this way: If you in fact thought you COULD influence the final price by posting on this forum, what would your interest be? To keep RED alive by supporting their somewhat realistic price? Or just be greedy and demand an insanely cheap professional motion picture camera, regardless of the security and future of the company...?

EDIT: Sorry Joseph, didn't see your response while writing this. But I came pretty close ;D

 

[Steven Hammer]

The last that we heard was that the Scarlet fixed PACKAGE was going to cost around $5,750. Have I missed an update regarding this?

I think this sentence gets to the point of this post.... There have been scattered bits of additional information, although no official update. There was recently a post in Recon that talked about Jan 1 2012 price increases for various Epic components such as the LCD, Side Handle, Redmote, etc. And there have been changes to the "expected" Scarlet fixed package, i.e. 5" LCD instead of 2.8" LCD and Side SSD instead of Side CF (although as of now the plan we're hearing is that you can get a SSD to CF adapter and use CF cards in the Side SSD module). And correct me if I'm wrong (I can't remember for sure), but was the $5,750 price was before HDRx? Because of these three factors, I think it's pretty apparent that it is very likely that RED will have to charge more than $5,750. And, everything they say says "Subject to Change", so, I expect change. I was really happy to see Joseph's post because I wanted to see some discussion as to what one may want to purchase to get a bare-bones operating Scarlet set up and just how much to expect to end up paying.

From everything I've seen, it sure looks like RED is going to charge the bare minimum for their products. Maybe I'm completely wrong about that, but from what I've seen on here on REDuser, I'm not worried about them trying to gouge people. Maybe I'm naive, but I really think that they want to make their technology available to the masses at as low of a cost as possible. Unfortunately, with the tsunami in Japan and the recent changes to the "base" package, I think that the previously estimated prices are just not going to happen. I sure would love to be surprised, though!

 

[David Rasberry]

That's not to say someone from RED might come in here and see that you said you are willing to pay $10k and stick that price tag on it just because they know people are willing to pay that.

I'm not saying RED is like that but if you owned a company and found out that people would pay more for your product, could anyone fault you for jacking your prices up especially when you haven't already set a price and theres no competition? That's just smart business IMO.

If that was the case Scarlet would be priced competitively with other 2/3" class cameras capable of similar performance and with similar features, I.E. somewhere around the price of a Pansonic Varicam 3700 or Sony PDW-F800. $30-$40K. Epic would be priced in line with ARRI Alexa and Sony F35. North of $70k. They are selling Epic M's as fast as they can build them at $58k for a shooting package with media. Still about $10k less than a bare bones Alexa body.

Scarlet's development costs along with other factors may have pushed it out of the low end prosumer market, but a 2/3" production camera shooting an uncompromised high quality image format for less than $15k will still be an exceptional value in the market.

 

[Michael J. Underwood]

+1 About two years ago, a big camera maker discovered what happens when you democratize the tools of cinema, yet no one has capitalized on it yet. What has always impressed me about the Scarlet program is that it seems aimed at smaller operations which will suddenly have access to tools that used to be prohibitively expensive. What happens if scarlet is affordable? Image making gets better, story telling gets better and expectations rise as well. An expensive scarlet that's just a toy for the big boys to add to their arsenal? Far less interesting proposition.

Hi Joseph, I just read through your post and I have to say, I am perplexed as to why someone would create a thread like this. It starts off great, because I assumed that it was referring to the Scarlet cinema, as I was always under the impression that the fixed was an "out of the box, ready to shoot camera," therefore, theoretically you wouldn't have to purchase more equipment to shoot on the Scarlet (albeit limited to batteries and media). In your list above, you're kinda stating that that isn't the case. Is that correct? As far as I was aware, the last that we heard was that the Scarlet fixed PACKAGE was going to cost around $5,750. Have I missed an update regarding this?

What I can't get my head around is why you'd start a thread that actively encourages the price increase of a camera that you're planning to purchase (I assume that you will be buying this camera)? It's like going to a car dealer, where you've seen a bargain motor and saying "dude, this car is worth twice what you're asking for it. If I were you, I'd charge me at least another $2k." I assume yo wouldn't do that, even if the car was a bargain?

I think it's great that you're so excited about this camera and that you can't fathom how they are producing at such a low price, but I guess for some of the potential Scarlet customers, they will be stretching budget for what they believe to be the best tool for their money. I don't think it's fair to ostracize people that want the best tool on the market, just because they have less money. After all, those people are only here and looking at RED for one reason, marketing. And the marketing led those people to believe that they could finally obtain a cinema level camera at a price they could afford.

You're obviously more in the loop than the rest with regards to the development of the Scarlet, and that leads me to believe that this post has a slight undertone to it. Are these new prices that you're quoting maybe something that you've heard on the grapevine? Are we being primed to a major price increase? Maybe this is a useful research tool to see how many people are going to oppose another price increase?

Before I get bashed for this post, please read through what I have written. I am in fact giving huge props to a company I admire. I absolutely want the Scarlet, and yes I agree that it could be argued that the Scarlet is worth ten times the price of whatever it sells for. But wasn't it RED's ambition to blow this market apart and finally give reasonably priced cinema quality cameras to film makers?

Just my opinion