Thoughts after seeing CHE

[laguun]

No offense to Soderberg, but if you are shooting in jungles during daylight, use 35mm, otherwise the white "patches" are going to blow out, guaran-fucking-teed. Sounds like a poor choice of camera for the film. That's just IMO.

gibson shot digital for his jungle, soderbergh shot digital for his jungle - and *cough* we are shooting our (much smaller) jungles since 2003 digitally...

wouldnt want to go back to 35mm negative. sony hdcams / panavision genesis excellent low-light, reds pristine resolution.... both styles are pretty hard to do with film and fit jungles well.

 

[laguun]

Right! I've been shooting in the Brazilian jungle last year (no Red) and without additional light you don't have a chance. Remember, even biology is telling us how the plants on "first floor" are struggling for those few photons left with all the tricks evolution developed for survival.
Definitely one of the most difficult environments for shooting e-camera.

Regards,

Uli

apocalypto used the panasony genesis for looong sequences at 3200ASA 360shutter iirc.

 

[reality]

I heard from the spanish crew members that the cameras were early early prototypes with very little functionality. No histograms or meters of any kind. Just the monitor with framing guides.

The jungle shots I saw at NAB looked fine to me.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I agree. The locked out marketleading postproduction tools are the main shortcoming of redcode. Cant wait for adobe, discreet, iridas, cineform etc finally let in.

Seems to work pretty well for some people... The CHE movies were conformed and graded entirely on SCRATCH from the original R3D files.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Brook Willard]

Seems to work pretty well for some people... The CHE movies were conformed and graded entirely on SCRATCH from the original R3D files.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

True, but I'd imagine his point is that many production houses have already invested tens of thousands of dollars on other systems that they don't want to replace for one camera... or they're simply individuals who cannot drop a significant chunk of change on a conform/DI solution [particularly when seamless FCP XML-based conform tools were originally promised in REDCINE for free]. Anybody who argues that SCRATCH isn't the best current solution for the RED is nuts. It's just not the right solution for everybody.

 

[Bruce Allen]

True, but I'd imagine his point is that many production houses have already invested tens of thousands of dollars on other systems that they don't want to replace for one camera...

Brook, totally agree - except make that _millions_ of dollars in the case of the high-end places. Oh yes, and add on all of the trained staff, etc.

EDIT:
I guess you can use Scratch as a conform machine and then pass everything into a Lustre / Quantel / DaVinci where the colorist is more comfortable, but it's still a pain.

Sorry, this is going OT. But since a lot of people (including Jim) are suggesting that the clipping seen in Che is not the camera's fault - it was something done deliberately or accidentally in the grade - then I must say that the decision to lock down the image chain to tools that the post people were perhaps unfamiliar with and couldn't get the most out of is part and of the RED experience right now since if you shoot with that camera, you are pushed down this route.

Just as I'd be tempted to say the edit of Che was weird since they had to use FCP and didn't have decent trim tools - but that's not an image quality thing. Anyway, I will try to shut up until I see the film.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

It's true and I already showed that SCRATCH can run comfortably from a laptop (MacBook Pro 17") to conform your FCP edit in 4k or 2K even in jungles like a Soderbetgh shot CHE.

No any other system than SCRATCH can do with R3D files similar workflow even in a near future when Redcode SDK will be widely available.

For example Speedgrade DI is not working on a laptop...

 

[Lucas Wilson]

True, but I'd imagine his point is that many production houses have already invested tens of thousands of dollars on other systems that they don't want to replace for one camera... or they're simply individuals who cannot drop a significant chunk of change on a conform/DI solution [particularly when seamless FCP XML-based conform tools were originally promised in REDCINE for free]. Anybody who argues that SCRATCH isn't the best current solution for the RED is nuts. It's just not the right solution for everybody.

Brook,

I get that...

And the solution you want may not be here, but that doesn't mean a good and solid end-to-end workflow doesn't exist.

Lucas

 

[Lucas Wilson]

EDIT: I guess you can use Scratch as a conform machine and then pass everything into a Lustre / Quantel / DaVinci where the colorist is more comfortable, but it's still a pain.

...the decision to lock down the image chain to tools that the post people were perhaps unfamiliar with and couldn't get the most out of is part and of the RED experience right now since if you shoot with that camera, you are pushed down this route.

Hey Bruce,

Once the movie is released, there will be a fuller workflow description of how things were done.

But the post people in this case were very familiar with the tools. The unfamiliarity primarily came from the fact that this was the *first* major RED feature completed on this level.

The unfamiliarity didn't come from the tools - it came from designing a very new workflow and a very new way of finishing a high-end theatrical feature.

Best,

Lucas

 

[Bruce Allen]

Thanks Lucas for clearing that up. Look forward to seeing the movie, reading about what they did, and learning (good and bad) from it... I know Soderbergh was talking about making the looks in RedCine in order to indicate how he wanted things graded (because that was in the interview) and I know they used Scratch (because you told us) but that's the sum of publicly-released info so far AFAIK.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[laguun]

No any other system than SCRATCH can do with R3D files similar workflow even in a near future when Redcode SDK will be widely available.

i think you are a) speculating and b) wrong on this.
full finishing systems (as smoke) add
- audio mixing and mastering (surround and fx plugis) including AAF/OMF etc.
- full 3D with geometry (FXB etc) and light
- morphing and warping
- full networked bin browsing in the background, remote location client access
- network rendering to not block the workstation when computing
- full compositing with nodal system etc.

its all there - only thing missing is the redcode documentation.

For example Speedgrade DI is not working on a laptop...

speedgrade runs perfectly and nicely on laptops. under linux, osx and windows. you should have a quadro in the notebook however.
also its supporting many raw formats (as arri, phantom, cineform, si/ps etc).

 

[Brook Willard]

Brook,

I get that...

And the solution you want may not be here, but that doesn't mean a good and solid end-to-end workflow doesn't exist.

Lucas

Oh, of course. You know I know that a robust workflow exists. Anybody that thinks that RED has "no" workflow needs to get their facts checked.

 

[Tom Lowe]

gibson shot digital for his jungle, soderbergh shot digital for his jungle - and *cough* we are shooting our (much smaller) jungles since 2003 digitally...

wouldnt want to go back to 35mm negative. sony hdcams / panavision genesis excellent low-light, reds pristine resolution.... both styles are pretty hard to do with film and fit jungles well.

Genesis has more dynamic range than Red, as far as I know. I did not care for the look of Apocalypto anyway, other than a couple of spiffy cable cam shots over the river and waterfall. Compare the photography in Apocalypto to The New World and The New World blows it out of the water, IMO.

If you want to see good natural-light photography in jungles and forests, go with The Thin Red Line, Last of the Mohicans, etc. Pretty much all shot anamorphic 35.

Like any tool, Red will be good for some jobs, not so good for others. If I was shooting a mostly daylight jungle picture right now I would want to shoot anamorphic 35. A forest or jungle is just really tough to expose for with digital, unless you're sort of aiming down most of the time.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Genesis has more dynamic range than Red, as far as I know. I did not care for the look of Apocalypto anyway, other than a couple of spiffy cable cam shots over the river and waterfall. Compare the photography in Apocalypto to The New World and The New World blows it out of the water, IMO.

Tom, we all know you're a self confessed Malick addict , so no surprise there, mostly because you're right. Having admitted that, I LOVED Apocalypto, thought it was one awesome thrill ride and a bare-bones, honest action flick. The look didn't detract me from enjoying the story, save for a couple of shots where a smaller (maybe DV?) is used to give us the hero's POV running through the jungle, but other than that, I'd say that digital cinema past the test of shooting in a jungle with flying colors. Although yes, 35mm would be better for such task.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

i think you are a) speculating and b) wrong on this.
full finishing systems (as smoke) add
- audio mixing and mastering (surround and fx plugis) including AAF/OMF etc.
- full 3D with geometry (FXB etc) and light
- morphing and warping
- full networked bin browsing in the background, remote location client access
- network rendering to not block the workstation when computing
- full compositing with nodal system etc.

its all there - only thing missing is the redcode documentation.

I can get all those from other apps:

- sound - sountrack 2, logic pro 8, nuendo, pro tools, etc...
- morphing wrapping - modo, maya,etc...
- full compositing, shake, nuke , etc...
- networking i do not need when "working" in a real jungle environment...

speedgrade runs perfectly and nicely on laptops. under linux, osx and windows. you should have a quadro in the notebook however.
also its supporting many raw formats (as arri, phantom, cineform, si/ps etc).

Speedgrade Di doesn't work on my MacBook Pro 17".

Unfortunately no NVIDIA Quadro FX - Mobile Solutions for Mac.

But Speedgrade DI on MacPro 8 core with 8800 GT works pretty good.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Tom, we all know you're a self confessed Malick addict , so no surprise there, mostly because you're right. Having admitted that, I LOVED Apocalypto, thought it was one awesome thrill ride and a bare-bones, honest action flick. The look didn't detract me from enjoying the story, save for a couple of shots where a smaller (maybe DV?) is used to give us the hero's POV running through the jungle, but other than that, I'd say that digital cinema past the test of shooting in a jungle with flying colors. Although yes, 35mm would be better for such task.

Don't get me wrong. I thought Apocalypto was a good action picture. I was strictly talking about the cinematography, which was a little bit of a letdown for me. I thought Semler did a lackluster job with the photography overall, especially given what a tremendous opportunity he had. I guess my hopes were too high going in. I was looking for another Dances with Wolves, Last of the Mohicans, The New World, Braveheart, etc.

 

[Joe G.]

Amazing thread, and it highlights a real concern I have about "blown out highlights." These are 100% unacceptable to me, and I don't want a single frame of it.

"at the end of the day nobody in a theatre is thinking about clipped high lights."

Disagree entirely. They don't look natural and they reveal the presence of computers, including computer errors, which instantly takes people out of the story.


"Until DR can be increased with new sensors, builds, processors, software, etc, you are going to have to be extremely careful about clipping with Red One."

Question for the company: Was the range increased at all in subsequent builds since SS shot his film?

"Probably lots of filters during daylight hours, and very careful lighting."

I'm getting the impression that shooting with just sunlight is discouraged and that reflectors and/or lighting will be required during all daylight shooting?

"That's why I only shoot during magic hours and at night with digital. You will never, ever catch me shooting during the middle the day if there is any way I can avoid it. Digital looks like crap and blows out too easily."

I thought the ND filters would take care of this problem? You seem to reject digital altogether during the day (50% of the time?) The camera must be better than THAT!?


"I would want to shoot anamorphic 35. A forest or jungle is just really tough to expose for with digital, unless you're sort of aiming down most of the time."

That's an important workaround to consider. Keep the sky out of the shot. What about shooting lakes? Would the reflections in the water be beyond the abilities of the camera? That's where my decision is going to come down to. I need extensive lakes, and some light forest at the shore. It's not jungle, and I don't mind using reflectors and possibly lighting to get it right. I just want to know that the camera is up to the job of simply filming daylight hours at a lake.........?

 

[Adrian T.]

I can get all those from other apps:

- sound - sountrack 2, logic pro 8, nintendo, pro tools, etc...

nintendo? :tongue:
I suppose you mean Nuendo... :wink:

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

nintendo? :tongue:
I suppose you mean Nuendo... :wink:

Thanks Big, that's correct, Nuendo.

 

[laguun]

I can get all those from other apps:

- sound - sountrack 2, logic pro 8, nuendo, pro tools, etc...
- morphing wrapping - modo, maya,etc...
- full compositing, shake, nuke , etc...
- networking i do not need when "working" in a real jungle environment...

sure and be it Apple fcs, or more expensive Adobe CS, these are all fine products with killer price/performance.

However a finishing system, not a software bundle, as smoke or quantels q-series offers all of this in one place. Prices of systems as smoke start at full scratch level.

Speedgrade Di doesn't work on my MacBook Pro 17".
Unfortunately no NVIDIA Quadro FX - Mobile Solutions for Mac.
But Speedgrade DI on MacPro 8 core with 8800 GT works pretty good.

yeah, sadly no QuadroFX from apple - but speedgrade however works fine on notebooks.

p.s.
surprised to hear that speedgrade uns on mac pro with 8800gt - never saw that before!