This article irked me

[Sabovic Adis]

RED surely lost the battle to ARRi here in the developed world.

Someone developed the world?

 

[Björn Benckert]

I dont see it as a lost battle Vs Arri. Arri just released their LF minis. Yes people like Arri and that camera is for sure a very good one. Monstro in comparision I actually like better but I have total respect for those that like less K´s, no compression, arri colors and functionality or what ever.

But, and this is important, Arri mini came out, late last year. Monstro / DMSC2 has been around for what, 5 years? A bit shorter if you take the late deliverables of monstro into account but that´s the same for arri, many people that placed orders for minis LF´s are still waiting for delivery.

And now as we kind of know what Kommodo is and I think if it was not for the Corona shitstorm, Kommodo would be out allready. And that comes with Autofocus, None rolling shutter, lightweight, small form factor, low power consumption, new lens mount. and a shit low price.

Now take those new developments that we know comes with Komodo, and imagine it translated it into a 8k Monstro version. Such camera to me would be way more attractive then the LF. I think for a lot of people even the 6k Komodo is more suitable than the ARRIs especially when price is also a factor.

 

[Phil Holland]

What can we look forward to from Philville 2021? Hopefully investing in infrastructure?

No army of CNC machines for me if I can avoid it. If and when things get back to a normal-ish state. I have a large project that should keep me filming most of 2020 that has at the moment only been postponed due to Covid-19, like everybody else, we're still having pre-pro meetings in the face of this craziness. After that wraps, likely a feature. Before that starts, philmColorR3 for sure. I've been blessed with time to work on that at the moment as well as develop some properties. I'm working on some spicy stuff right now actually. If that project gets canned and this goes on for a long, long time. Well I'm in the position so many are at that point where we have no real bead on future work in a post-Covid-19 restricted world.

For the accessories I design, I'm in a tricky situation where it is indeed "just me". You'll notice I collaborate with a lot of people to bring the accessories we offer to market (Cine Filter Crate w/ Ryan, rodClaw w/ Duclos). The other stuff I just go to manufacturers and ask them "kindly" to make stuff. A smidge of product consultation, a whole lot of off the air product R&D and feedback. That's mostly because I'm filming most of the year.

I went hard designing a motion picture light for about 1.5 years that turned into a very bad business relationship thing with my two other partners "vanishing" off the face of the earth. Literally. The money I put into that could have easily been 2-4 more complete camera packages. Lesson learned about who to do business with in those ways. I choose to work closely with people and companies I can trust really.

If I was smarter I'd have a small group of employees or something. But I'm a filmmaker first really.

RED surely lost the battle to ARRi here in the developed world.

The Mini and Mini LF increased sales for Arri in a big way, but generally there are more RED cameras out there because they were/are more accessible to owner/ops. Arri however has a stronger presence in the rental market from actual rental houses for sure. It varies by region, district, state, city, etc.

The Mini brought cost of ownership down as well as convenience of a smaller camera into the mix for the first time in the Arri digital world. Out here in LA, I actually know owner/ups that own full size LFs too, but most are after the Mini LF these days. On the RED side, lots of owner/ops as well as rental houses. Pretty much a game of the big three at big houses of RED, Arri, and Sony (Venice). Panavision supports every camera, and the DXL/DXL2 is out in number globally as well.

I don't really view it as a battle lost if the goal was to sell more cameras. I also think Arri is doing fine in the face of that too really.

In units sold, though at a much lower price point, BMD's Pocket 6K did gang busters initially, moving massive numbers in the first weeks. That mass market price point inspires a lot of sales because all people can jump in, which is why the larger companies like Canon, Sony, Panasonic, etc. are so focused there. There's sometimes more of one single model of an entry price point camera than the entirety of all digital cinema cameras on the market. Which is crazy, but true. And then there's cell phones which we all have.

 

[Sergio Perez]

RED surely lost the battle to ARRi here in the developed world.

That is why in your “developed world” we see shows of the quality of “Kingdom”, shot on Helium. Or films with the production value and visual excellence such as “The Great Gatsby”.

Red didn’t lose any “battle”. Are there more Arri câmeras out there in production houses? Maybe so. But that doesn’t say anything about the quality of the picture and the versatility of the red workflow.

It does say Arri’s marketing focus, communication and design tailored to the older guard transitioning from film workflows worked for their target market better. And it’s support and infrastructure from its film and rental days worldwide helped this further.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I'd like for RED to do well. Really, really well. And I hope and believe RED feels the same about its customer base (no matter how many times we may have gotten annoyed with one thing or another.) I hope once we are past this incredible global event that will take many years for Humanity to really process and understand, RED will be back with an aggressive effort to stabilize and strengthen the relationship between itself and its customers. My suggested tenet for RED: "Leave no customer behind."

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Red's relationship with its customers has always been pretty good. It's had solid customer support, makes great cameras, and so on...

But there are a lot of wannabes who bought Red cameras because they thought it would improve their work, but more resolution just exposes the flaws in your work if you're not any good. Even Peter Jackson commented on that when working on the Hobbit series, his team had to raise their game in a big way because of the higher resolution. Ang Lee had similar comments about his experience shooting in 4K HDR at 120fps...

But rather than up their game, some people blamed their gear, and since they bought Reds in the hopes that the badge was a talent button... well, they can't accept that they didn't raise their game, so they blame the gear. Due to Red's prestige, it's a good target for clickbait...

There are actually quite a few members of the Black Magic forum who complain about Red while also saying that their "high end" friends couldn't make good images with Black Magic cameras.

See if you can make sense out of THAT.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Kinefinity is the new RED.



Avaiting DSMC3

 

[Jan Schuster]

Kinefinity is the new RED.



Avaiting DSMC3

Very much looking forward to DSMC3 specs after Kinefinity announcement. Would be unfortunate to move away from red, I really don't want to, but new Kinefinity does have some amazing features that if DSMC3 doesn't provide it would be an unfortunate move away from Red..

All that being said there will have to be some real kinefinity camera tests done before switching. But on paper it's a good thing going...

 

[David Rasberry]

I've had some self quarantine time to binge on Netflix and Amazon Prime new content. Red certainly holds a significant share of series and feature production credits in the streaming markets. Prime's Aeronauts, shot on Monstro, is spectacular.

 

[Thai Christen]

Very much looking forward to DSMC3 specs...

I hear lots of people talk about Dsmc3. Fact is, Komodo was announced almost a year ago and we still don't have a release date yet.
Whereas Mavo Edge will be available August/September this year. Not sure they can hit that timeframe, but at least potential buyers have a perspective.

Unless RED is cooking something in their backyard, I doubt there will be Dsmc3 any time soon. But who knows, RED have always been good at surprising us...

 

[Andrew Reese]

I looked at the Mavo LF as a potentially option before deciding on a DSMC2 Gemini. I just don't think I would want to spend over twenty thousand dollars on a camera that doesn't have US based customer service and repair support. For the limited available knowledge on Kinefinity cameras (real world performance, customer support, reliability, lack of availability at rental houses), and the fact that you basically will be dealing straight with China on any custom support or repairs, I just can't see spending that much money for risk of being out months without a camera (if it fails and you have to send it in) as well as the lack of upgrade programs despite such a large initial investment, the potential for large amounts of depreciation on used kinefinity equipment, etc. it just seems risky and not quite there yet for me to take the plunge into their ecosystem with so many variables in play. The technology looks great on a spec sheet but has it been proven over the last 4-5 years in the professional realm, has it been used on any big features, do we even know of anyone that has put it through 1-2 years of hard film work on a daily basis (i.e. travel docs, 12 hour days on set, extreme temperatures and environments, etc.). It's really no different than a beefed up z-cam as it looks great on paper but who actually owns one and uses it on legit jobs consistently without failure or regrets? Again specs are great on the internet and youtube, but what are we looking at for real world usability, image quality, and reliability? Just two many question marks for me for too high of a price tag... I agree though, the tech we are seeing in Kinefinity is some of the tech we need to see in RED DSMC3 but I do agree I think it will be at least 3-4 more months until Komodo is shipping and 2021 until we hear a potential date for DSCM3. More time for DSMC3 is not always a bad thing remember, it gives us more time to save for the upgrade path and more time for RED to make great improvements without rushing to compete with XYZ. DSMC2 line-up is still the standard in rental houses along with ARRI and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[Mike P.]

I hear lots of people talk about Dsmc3. Fact is, Komodo was announced almost a year ago and we still don't have a release date yet.
Whereas Mavo Edge will be available August/September this year. Not sure they can hit that timeframe, but at least potential buyers have a perspective.

Unless RED is cooking something in their backyard, I doubt there will be Dsmc3 any time soon. But who knows, RED have always been good at surprising us...

To be fair, back when DSMC2 launched Jarred made a point of saying it would be RED's primary camera platform until 2020 (at least?), and I don't imagine the pandemic speeding up that timeline.

Similarly, RED used to give development updates and hopeful (aka ambitious) release schedules, but I recall Jarred wanting to stop doing that because too many people would complain when they blew passed those timeframes. If memory serves, the reason Komodo was a little different (announced early/teased for a year) was because it was an extension/takeover of the Hydrogen camera module project and Hydrogen owners were getting antsy (since the hydrogen team blew passed their expected launch and then Hydrogen got canceled *cough*Also p6k came out around the same time.*cough*). So, yeah, RED isn't standing still; I'm basically expecting entry-level DSMC3 to be Monstro with PDAF, and then the higher-end cameras in the line-up being even better/newer than that. We'll see.

As for the article OP linked to, as an owner, not much in it is surprising/different from my own experiences with RED. Have certainly had a lot of those same issues/concerns/problems crop up (some often), but shooting on RED also allowed us to shoot 4k+ raw ~5years longer than any competitor, so those problems were worth dealing with IMO. But times (and the competition) have changed...

Case in point, if Mavo Edge is as good as Mavo LF (which actually costs substantially more), but has none of the quirks (biggest being KineRaw, which Edge tackles directly by using ProresRaw) then I expect it to do quite well... 8k FF35 at 75p for $12k in a shootable body??!! Pffft Yes please! It's basically a MiniLF, for 1/8th the price... (if only Resolve supported prores raw. lol!)

 

[Thai Christen]

I just don't think I would want to spend over twenty thousand dollars on a camera

How do you want to spend over $20K on Mavo Edge plus accessories??

camera that doesn't have US based customer service and repair support.

It really depends where you are based. Here in Europe Kinefinity has a broader dealer network and aftersales support than in the US. In most cases you can send the camera and parts directly to one of the bigger dealer in Europe for inspection and repair.
http://www.kinefinity.com/kineteam/contact_local_dealers/?lang=en

I don’t know the reason why Kinefinity has not been able to tackle the US market more aggressively. Maybe it could have something to do with the tensed foreign trade relationship between China and the US?
Nevertheless, meanwhile Kinefinity has one dealer in Burbank, CA. This is a good start.

and the fact that you basically will be dealing straight with China on any custom support or repairs,

Again, depends where you are based. I live in Switzerland which is not part of the EU. RED have always been very grateful and their support is top notch!
Having said that, if I have to send my Red cameras or accessories for inspection/repair, it has to go back to Irvine. That would cost me approx. US$ 400 shipment total. And I have to go through the hassle with papers, customs, exporting/re-importing, pay an additional import tax of 7.7% on repair costs. Plus at least 2-3 weeks waiting.
So yes, RED support is great, but the hassle is still the same whether I send my camera to the US, China or wherever in the world.

as well as the lack of upgrade programs despite such a large initial investment, the potential for large amounts of depreciation on used kinefinity equipment, etc. it just seems risky

Kinefinity offers upgrade/trade in for existing customers.

Every gear depreciates, now with tech moving faster, even more quickly. It is a wrong way of thinking. You should only invest in gears if your business model supports it. If you cannot pay off your investment within 2-3 years max, then you didn't do your homework properly.
Once you have amortised your investment, this is when it gets interesting. At this point, you can either upgrade to a new camera (investment cycle will start from new), sell it at whatever market price, or continue to shoot or rent and really START to earn money with your GEAR.

Speaking of depreciation, since Dsmc2 RED cameras depreciate much quicker than one would like it to. So, not much different.

ARRI is the only brand that does not lose so much in value so quickly IMO.

 

[Andrew Reese]

I didn't realize the Mavo Edge is 12k... Is that body alone? What about tax....What about extension modules for guys using gold mount batteries? I was figuring 20k once you invest in all the extras such as batteries, chargers, mags, monitoring, tax, etc. Similarly along the lines with RED, as a brain doesn't work on its own. All the little things add-up...which someone fairly new to this realm of modular cinema camera's (who might buy a Mavo Edge) won't fully factor in when they see that initial price tag. I know accessories for Kinefinity cameras are much cheaper but I figured still there would be extra costs. I did not know about their dealer in Burbank CA however, that is definitely a start in the right direction in building faith in localized support networks.

Not knocking the camera at all... Personally I love its build/aesthetics more than ARRI (not modular enough) and RED cams (too oblong and top heavy) and think it is the perfect match between Alexa Mini and a DSMC2 brain. However, I still think if someone had the choice to spend their hard earned money between a DSMC2 Cam (even used) and a Kinefinity Mavo Edge, I think people are going to go with a brand that has existing recognition and has been around for going on 10-years now. The people I can see buying a Mavo are a small percentage of the overall market (commercial / indie DP's) who are purchasing their first professional cinema camera kind of like myself a few years back when I made the jump from Sony (FS5/FS7) to RED. I gave Kinefinity a look because of the amazing specs but when it really came to dropping my hard earned big dollars on a camera I chose a brand that I can rely on and one the market is familiar with. You can rent your RED camera to recoup costs which is in a lot of DP's business models but I don't think there would be a high demand for Kinefinity rentals (outside of LA) or even availability to rent one as a secondary camera in most of the US to pair with yours (if you owned one). Not to mention clients, producers, and colorists are not familiar with emerging brands and specs the same way a DP is and are going to be more conformable investing production dollars into familiar names such as RED/Arri. I think most would even choose a C300iii over the Mavo Edge just for the familiarity of what you are working with.

Jokes aside, in 2020 I still get lash back from some productions about my Gemini (isn't the data rate too high for our needs, 16-bit raw is overkill and will take too much time in post, etc.) and fear that the camera is "hard to work with in post" which is 100% due to a lack of familiarity with the RED eco-system. Multiply that scenario ten fold when using a Kinefinity camera with similar specs and even less brand recognition. Simply put, I think we need to see more Kinefinity's out in the wild, being used by reputable people, and more in rental houses before the sense of trust, support, and overall impressions of quality/usability is there. Even the opportunity to get my hands on one and rent it on the east coast to try the camera would go leaps and bounds in building faith into purchasing one but still there is not one in any rental houses on my side of the US that I am aware of. Still just too many variables no matter how good the specs for me. If anything I am hoping DSMC3 implements some of this tech/form factor and I can keep my Gemini for another year then happily upgrade but I definitely am not in a hurry to sell my Gemini to pick up a Mavo no matter what the spec sheet says.

 

[Thai Christen]

I didn't realize the Mavo Edge is 12k...

I suggest you check this thread. Lots of Mavo Edge stuff have been discussed here.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?181457-Kinefinity-MAVO-Edge

And if I may, please write in sections. Your text is so hard to read. I gave up not even nearly halfway through.
No offense, though.