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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Thinking of buying a RED

Andrew Reese said:
The OP shoots sports.... for slow motion there is no other camera to own if you shoot action or nature than a RED in my opinion. Slow motion, and I mean "real slow motion at > 120 fps not just 60fps" is the biggest selling point to the RED ecosystem and a used Scarlet-W over anything else in its price range. Scarlet-W records 5k/60fps, 4k/120fps, 2k/300fps continuously all in 16-bit raw with compression options (if file size is a worry) which makes it a no brainer for sports. Closest competition is FS7/FX9, c200/c300, or BMP6k which will only do 2k max resolution at 120fps in 10-12 bit depth with reduced IQ (windowing of the sensor). Just the dynamic range and color fidelity of a RED camera places it in a league well above FX9, c200/c300 and BMP6k outside of the added bonus of its much higher frame rates at 4k-5k resolution. Shoot in challenging scenarios and you will quickly see that RED images hold up to a challenging grade better versus 12-bit or 10-bit PRO-RES or CDNG (which has even larger file sizes than Redcode Raw).

Yes, the Canon R5 is promising and looks great announced online but its not out yet and definitely won't be out for another year. Remember it will only do 10-bit 4k /120fps, and most likely without using the entire sensor similar to how the 1dxii works which was a big drawback to its 4k/60fps as advertised. Lastly, remember that increased resolution (8k in a DSLR) doesn't matter if dynamic range and color bit depth are limited! I agree, the Canon c300 is great for storytelling (if not one of the best narrative cameras out there) and their Raw is more than adequate and actually quite nice, but its definite not an action cam with its less than impressive frame rates. If all the OP did was interviews, I would have recommended a pair of BMP6K or c200/c300, but the need for slow motion points towards a Scarlet-W which really makes a lot of sense, especially if he is only trying to make small edits in the timeline while on the go between locations.

I edit RED footage on the go a lot between jobs when traveling, in cars, on planes, trains, etc. and it's quite easy with modern computers/graphics, SSD drives, and a powerful NLE. Now before you say you don't want to invest in a new laptop, remember there is always proxy workflow. Again, I still don't get the whole workflow debate of a RED verses a BM or Canon. All three shoot raw and require some level of post production. Don't forget BMP6k requires a DaVinci workflow to get CDNG files out of it while RED has integration right in FCPX where you can access and manipulate the Redcode metadata without using Redcine X, directly in FCPX. Yes render times are quicker with camera's that record at lower bit rates but there really is a trade of for a smaller file sizes which simultaneously means (lower quality image with less information). Whereas a RED camera records more info yes, but it produces a much fatter digital negative to work with in post. Larger files almost always mean better image quality I hate to tell you....To debunk the RED workflow mystery, I can offload and import a full 480gb redmag onto my 2019 MBP 15" into a FCPX library and a backup storage drive in less than 10-15 minutes. I can then quickly scrub through and clean-up a mags worth of footage in about 30 minutes and slice up and edit a few clips (say 5-10) in an additional 20-30 minutes, then drop an IPP2 base rec 709 conversion LUT (supplied by RED) onto the footage in less than a minute and give a client a pretty impeccable, high quality result within about 1-1.5 hours fairly easily. I find that I spend a lot more time on mixing audio in post than the entire process of review, edit, color grade, and publish on most jobs even with a RED workflow.

Lastly, to address the portability factor, I highly recommend you check out the Cinebags Stryker 35 or CB-25 backpack. I can fit my Red gemini, 4 reasonably sized lenses (say canon L series), 4 gold mounts, 2 d-tap chargers, 2 mini mags, 2 card readers, 4.7" monitor, lemo a/b with cables, misfit atom matte box, 5 stops of NISI 4x5.65 ND filters, 1 x pro mist, lens cleaning gear, tools, zacuto z-drive follow focus, laptop, and much more all in one bag that counts as a carry on. Would be pretty easy for the OP to travel with a duffle bag and the backpack or vice versa. Other than shoulder rig, wireless accessories, stabilizers, etc. I have been able to fly with my entire RED gemini kit and lenses as a "fail safe" carry on fairly easily. Then I check/ship any additionally required production accessories (i.e. wireless video, gimbal, follow focus, directors monitor, lighting, etc.) when necessary but it is definitely very easy to travel even internationally with a RED camera.
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Pretty much sums it up and hits the nail on my head. Not that the RED is my only option but when put like that, my choice seems pretty easy. Really appreciate you breaking down and comparing the other cameras that could be considered options. I’ve been doing a ton of research and it just didn’t sit right dropping basically the same amount on something I’m not happy with or has it’s hang ups as well
 
Andrew Reese said:
Don't forget BMP6k requires a DaVinci workflow to get CDNG files out of it while RED has integration right in FCPX where you can access and manipulate the Redcode metadata without using Redcine X, directly in FCPX.
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Well. The P6K doesn't even shoot CDNG.

It shoots its version of compressed raw, .braw, or ProRes. You can choose between fixed data rate (x3, x5, x8 or x12) or dynamic rates like Q0 and Q5. The Q5 is my goto mode because it's very efficient and shows no artefacts.

It shoots 6K60FPS or 2.7K120FPS in raw to internal CFast cards or externally to something like a cheap 2TB Samsung T5. You can then use that drive to just plug into a computer and start working right away.

You can load it with LUTs for monitoring, or you can burn them straight into the ProRes for a zero post workflow. What you see* is what you get in this case.

* If used with a loupe like the Kinotehnik BM5, you can hold it up to your face without any other accessories and you have a sealed off view of the big screen where you can easily pull focus (with or without peaking) and evaluate exposure (with or without false colors).

The battery might not last more than 45 minutes. It's a good thing then, that you can have two extras in your front right jeans pocket. Or 8 or so in a jacket. Whatever.

NDs are 82mm FireCrests that you screw onto you EF mount lenses. Use adapter rings for lenses with smaller threads. No VariNDs, because as you know, they don't work.

Blackshading. Fan management. Boot times.

Come again? We're talking about cameras right?

It's $1995 and comes with a studio version of DaVinci Resolve (where you can use the Raw settings to custom dial in how you want your footage interpreted on a per project level if you want).




But sure, there's nothing quite like setting money on fire, so I say go for it!
 
Not sure where the “burning money” comment is directed but to be honest as I stated several times in my replies, I do not want a camera body in that style. My experience has not been great trying to rig up those style of cameras for the many different things I need. It becomes time consuming to put together and break down and to travel with. And let’s be real here, RED’s modular system blows away anything else I’ve seen and beats having to carry around a million smallrig parts to rig up a dslr. Every camera is different and each one is better only in a sense of catering to that users specific needs. I didn’t ask to crown the king of cameras in this thread. I put out my list of needs and hoped to get insights on if RED could suit those needs. I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond with great info with the intent of helping out a fellow creator!
 
Kerry Lofton said:
I do not want a camera body in that style.
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No, that is of course completely valid, and more importantly, the only thing that matters—that you know what you want.

I also think that the way the smaller cameras truly shine if they are used more or less as is. Not at the core of some FrankenRig.

I do think the P6K works for a very mobile setup, like a monopod and a loupe (and that to me is a good setup for doc style shooting). But if you're more into, and comfortable with, a truly modular ecosystem with an established name for commercial projects, RED will work.
 
Kerry i shot wildlife docs and as much i dont like Red as a company i love the what DSMC2 gives me as creative tool and as output. 1. yes you can run and gun with this camera if you set it up that way. be prepare yo burn some $ but you can have compact, and fast little setup htat can be deployed in less then a minute and rolling 2) for sports and wild life Red has a pre recording that SAVES a lot of data space at the end of the day and first and for most it gives you ability to work without stress. i cant shoot action sports or wildlife without it. just for this point DSMC2 is golden for type of work that you do. on the other hand Red is hard to deal with. i shot Arriflex film cameras in the past then i shot with Sony F55 and Red is and i find that Rds build quality is borderline usable for for type of work that i do. as much as i love Redcode, Monstro and Helium sensors, IPP2 i absolutely hate red accessory, cards, monitors, EVF, and specially modules, that i find overpriced junk. i have a lot of hope for DSMC3 and i would suggest that you hold a bit longer and see what will be the Red's offering for 2020
 
Canon R5 price was announced in Australia yesterday. Still no release date (I presume about 6 months to a year until they actually ship). Looks like its coming in at $6792 not including your local sales tax.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/05/15/canon-r5-price-listed-in-australia/

With any camera you will need accessories to really get it to function for an entire days shoot. So you will need a few CFE / CFAST media cards on top of that price (for 4k-8k recording) as I presume it will not record high quality video to standard SD cards. Then you will also need batteries, lots and lots of tiny Canon batteries, (I'd say about 6-10 of them) to be reasonably set for a days shoot or travel where you can't recharge during the day. You could always build this camera out similar to a BMP6K with a cage / rails and a v-mount out the back on d-tap, but again that's additional cost and you are moving away from the freedom of a small handheld DSLR feel (which is what makes this camera appealing) into a clunky solution that would be annoying and wouldn't work as well for Photography if you still intend to use it for that purpose, which I know I would want to.

But what about monitoring? Is a tiny LCD on the back of a DSLR adequate for pulling focus or framing fast moving subjects shooting on zoom lenses? So I say built, with a proper atomos / small hd monitor, batteries, media, and maybe a small cage/rails that allow it to be built into a shoulder rig, you are now getting into the $9-10k price range for this camera to perform like a true cinema camera. At that price range, a used Scarlet-W is right there and makes much more sense if you are a full-time NFL videographer and not a travel vlogger, wedding photographer, etc., where I see Sony and Canon DSLR's making more sense..... Again, the RED ecosystem gives you 16-bit Redcode (vs 10-bit) and I cannot stress how important that is. Then you also get much better frame rates, truly modular build, batteries that won't need swapped every 20 minutes and cost damn near as much as a cheap v-mount, etc. I can see from the variability in responses everyone has their opinions on what works for them and that's okay and great and a lot of which shares valid points, but in my reasoning when you really start adding up the "true cost" of cheaper camera builds, Canon DSLR's are to expensive for what you get in terms of video recording if you leave their photo performance out of the equation. Canon DSLR's have popularity through the long going EF mount (which is already in the process of transitioning to RF) and autofocus for individuals who are highly vested in EOS glass and that is what keeps them going. If you shoot on lenses that do not have EF mount / autofocus, shoot on PL lenses (a lot of nice zooms / anamorphics / vintage lenses are) there is absolutely no advantage to this platform over a used Red or even a BMP6K! At that price range I would gladly buy (2-3) BMP6k's for multicam work, a Scarlet-W, Komodo, or even a used C300ii before I would pickup an R5. If the R5 was under $4500 I would say it would be a great option and comparable to the A7 lineup but considering its pricing is more geared towards the lower echelon of professional cinema cameras, I would even say a Kinefinity terra would be a better choice before I would spend close to $10,000 on a DSLR that will have version number 2 popping its head out at NAB next year before you know it.

If you can afford the RED go for it and don't look back and I promise you won't. If you can't afford a RED be patient and save for a year or two to get one. I have just about $28k invested in my Gemini Kit (bought a lot of stuff new long before Covid dropped some prices a few months back) and at the time coming from FS5/FS7 I was very afraid to spend all that money for fear of regrets, lack of jobs, or simply the question that is it really going to be any better.... 6 months to a year later, let me tell you despite losing money on depreciation (which is common with any cinema camera), I would say it is the best investment I made into my video career yet and I wouldn't change a thing. There is something to be said when I point that camera towards a subject or scene I know and have upmost faith in my camera's ability to record a high quality image. When I walk away with RED footage at the end of the day, I find myself like a little kid, excited to review the footage as I know it will look great, and if not its something I find I did and lacked in production, rather than my cameras inability to perform. Prior to owning a RED camera, I never had that level of confidence in my equipment and I always felt like I was held back by my FS5/FS7 when shooting beside friends on jobs that owned RED's. Now I feel that the only thing that holds me back on jobs is myself. It's nice to have that love and level of confidence for your gear and I never felt that way before owning a RED.

Side note: As mentioned above I completely forgot about the "pre-record feature" which is ESSENTIAL for recording sports or nature in slow motion as you can't afford to always be rolling so you don't miss the magic moment especially not when recording high resolution with high frame rates you will burn through cards and batteries very quickly. Instead you watch it happen and press record after the fact not missing a single thing. Pretty awesome stuff...
 
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If your team is already shooting Amira, you should consider the new c300iii or the c500ii. Raw or xfavc and some decent slow mo speeds and using the arri 709 lut on clog 2 gets you a pretty similar image. Also I think you might have much faster turn around as well as full audio control in camera and long battery run times while staying light and tight.
 
It sounds like you really want to get a red so go for it. Just be aware of what the potential hiccups are. It will probably be more cumbersome and clunky than you're used to, the cost of media and batteries alone are an order of magnitude more expensive than what you're used to but if you want it, you can definitely make it work.

I've had my reds on similar one man ops for an NBA team during a championship winning season and using them in that chaos has always come down to whether or not the picture quality (namely dynamic range and HFR) was worth the amount of additional effort needed, and if my production schedule had room for that effort. Usually in a situation like yours I would say no, and go for something like a c200, great color, lighter, with good autofocus allowing me to get a moving shot with iris more open than I would normally go without an AC pulling focus. It has internal ND, usable preamps, and longer runtimes for battery and media, with an option for raw when I need the iq. And it's older so it's cheap.

I think a cam like that would be better suited to your needs as it would afford you the mental space to focus more on story and less on camera operation, because you can get the shot, which in doco is sometimes the most important thing. And with lightning fast turnarounds, you don't have a ton of time for post so you might not see a huge jump in your final product shooting on red anyway.

You could get a camera like this, rig it and get plenty of batteries and media for your budget while doing so on a red might be pushing it. You could also consider selling it in a couple years and use that time to save more for your dream red as well.

Having said all that, if you want a red, get a red, this is a red forum so we understand :) and you can definitely make it work. But to save you headache, rent one for a week and put it through it's paces and see if it's worth it.
 
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Really appreciate all the input for everyone, especially for a newbie here! Everyone has some valid points and gives me some really really good things to think about. Nothing is set in stone and I still have a few weeks before I have to make a purchase and I’m my research I’ve found another camera that really blew up my whole frame of thinking haha so I need to just keep doing a little research, make my list of pros and cons and then go forward!
 
I wonder what that camera was!
Is it Kinefinity Mavo Edge? :)
I mean with the Internal ND, small battery, 25-35W power draw, dual ISO, Large Format, lots of mount options, Audio Inputs, ProResRAW, cheap media, $12K price tag, etc.. Should ticks a lot of boxes for many doc shooters & independent content creators, being objective.
 
Audy- the kinefinity definitely caught my attention. However, I’ve done some research and it seems like there’s a lot on paper that people aren’t sure will actually live up to the hype. With an investment this big I’d rather not be one of the early adopters, perhaps I’ll check it out down the line once’s it’s built it’s name a bit. It is tempting.

The other camera is actually an arri Alexa Classic. Now I know a ton of people will say “hold up, everything you said you needed goes out the window” haha trust me, I know. I’m not crazy about the size and weight, the risk of buying a camera that old, the old, hard to find and expensive media, the hassle of that PL mount, and did I mention the weight? But goodness, even at just 2k and limited frame rate that thing produces gorgeous images and for roughly $6-$7.5k it’s hard not to think of all the other gear like lights and lenses and stuff I could buy to maximize my budget. Decisions decisions
 
All great advice here. But the best advice is to rent or borrow one and use it on the job once. That's the only way to know if it will work for your needs. Do that before spending $$$$ buying it. And that applies to ANY camera, not just RED. Rent first, then buy with confidence.
 
Rent atleast for a week first.

But I would skip the scarlet W and get a monstro. Scarlet W is a great camera, but Monstro is from a different planet in comparision.

What I would do if I did the kind of work as you describe:

-Get a few big mags. 4 Kipper tie 2tb would be plenty.

-Shot low bitrate high resolution, like 8k 12:1.

-Edit in resolve, straight from the mags. use resole lowres setting for editing and full res for export. Any computer made after 2010 does this very well.


-Export from resolve to 4k prores and upload to vimeo.

-If backing up source material you can do a media management in resolve very quickly to trim the source and still stay in native raw.

Likly, if you shoot monstro, you will get plenty of material that sticks out above the rest that can sell well as stock footage. Monstro also as I see it has best lowlight and highspeed capacity of the red cameras. That together with pre record and other features together with the fantastic picture quality separates it from the rest.

But again make sure you rent first and make sure to get a kit suited for what you do. A lot of batteries to carry around and a good formfactor for what you do.
 
Kerry Lofton said:
The other camera is actually an arri Alexa Classic – that thing produces gorgeous images and for roughly $6-$7.5k
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Did you just watch the YouTube video by Hugo Will? It popped up in my stream yesterday. Hasn't got many views but I find it interesting that I just watched that, and then read your post here...

Are you looking for a certain camera to fill specific needs, or are you looking to get the "most pro" camera (and image IQ) for a certain price?

When I re-read your first post, I thought the C300 mkIII would be a good fit for you, but this Alexa is a different kind of camera.

You say in a summary above, talking about non RED cameras: "All of which I can’t really think of any reasons why these would be better than RED".

Cameras fill different roles, so there needs to be a comma after your statement above like:

"All of which I can’t really think of any reasons why these would be better than RED, when it comes to portability..."

"All of which I can’t really think of any reasons why these would be better than RED, when it comes to audio..."

"All of which I can’t really think of any reasons why these would be better than RED, when it comes to auto focus..."

"All of which I can’t really think of any reasons why these would be better than RED, when it comes to total $ price..."

"All of which I can’t really think of any reasons why these would be better than RED, when it comes to weight..."

The list could go on and on. Sometimes the RED will come out on top, and sometimes it won't.
 
Andrew- Yes I did. Really good information. Also saw Potato Jet’s video of him buying one and it just was interesting. Tbh, there’s pretty much no way I’d buy it cause the cons far outweigh the pros, but it’s something to think about.

But you’re right, it’s more about finding something that is great image quality and then working with everything else from there and in my opinion, there aren’t many cameras that I feel can compete with the RED there. Not even talking tech specs, just personal preference. Even if I had 10x the money, I’d still lean towards RED because something about those images speak to me.

That’s kinda why unless someone gave a stellar reason for something like a Blackmagic or a canon, even though yeah I could probably get those up and running for a little cheaper, they may be a little easier on one thing or another, it all comes back to me still having to be happy with the Image and the look it puts out. We have some canon C series cameras and just quite honestly I’m not a fan of the image it puts out. Same with the Blackmagic. I’ve seen some tests and research and some stuff looks great and then some stuff makes me wonder (I know this is more about the user and their color skills but still). I think that’s the biggest thing I learned from this thread and all these replies. Again, it’s hard to say, RED is better than _____” because that’s objective. Everybody needs different things and has different reasons why a camera would be better. Somebody recommended a Monstro above. They said it would be “better” but it really wouldn’t because it would hurt my budget and there’s no way I need that much resolution. Somebody else recommended on another forum a Blackmagic broadcast camera. The list can go on and on and on cause if you ask 10 different people, they’ll give you 10 different answers based on their perspective. Which I knew and expected. I didn’t expect to read something in these replies and for a lightbulb to go off. I simply wanted to get as much info as I could from my peers so that I could make the most informed purchase I can. This was just a piece of the puzzle. I’ve also had contact with a rep from red getting info, went in depth with a couple friends who own them, and spent a ton of time on YouTube and online doing research.
 
You say that your team uses Amiras. Have you thought about using that camera? It seems like it does everything that you are asking. You can change color temp, frame rate, various nd's, false color, zebra, waveform, color peaking all at the flick of a button. Built in handheld mount so no cages etc. Built in audio so you could attach a mic easily. Shoot in pro res for quick easy turn around. Shoots up to 200 fps with no windowing in on the sensor. No black shading for various temperatures/fps. Maybe the team will put up the cash and add to their inventory for you to have one?
 
Mark - that’s something I’ve thought about, but like the Alexa, the weight is what becomes a hassle. Which is why I briefly thought about the Alexa but my shoulder started crying remembering having to lug that Amira around. Funny story, but a few years ago I was working for a church that shot on Red and amiras. I had to go on a mission trip to Haiti and could choose whichever camera I wanted. I went with the Amira, despite the size difference all because I didn’t want to record audio separately from the red. I was young and inexperienced haha but never again. Anyways, I’m also wanting to make this investment myself. I’m starting to do a lot of extra side work as far as weddings, short films, and I’m building my own thing so I’m really just wanting to invest in something myself so that when the tome comes, I’m not starting from scratch and leaving all that equipment behind. Besides, they can also be a little cheap when it comes to buying gear. No disrespect to them, just kinda how it is
 
With my NFL experience I've encountered Amira's / FS7 / and a couple F55's, and surprisingly no RED's travelling with the away teams, however I've seen them on the NBA court. You can certainly have one rigged out to be lighter than an Amira and they are robust enough for run and gun (though power hungry, so get yourself a hot swap option and avoid that 20s startup). If it were up to me I'd pick an Amira with a nice zoom lens (if I have a utility to help)...but if its me by my lonesome I would maybe make a different choice.
 
Thanks Rob. I hadn’t heard of any team in the nfl with them either but apparently there are quite a few according the rep from RED I spoke with. Just me, carrying all my gear, shooting, and editing. A one man bad. Those amiras are just way too have. I was seriously considering the Alexa classic as well but again, that weight is just too much.
 
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