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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Thinking of buying a RED

With your post production schedule would you have the capability to store/edit/color .r3d files? Though you can shoot pro res files (simultainiously even) you would save precious time messing with the touch screen to change your white balance.
 
I should be able to. I have a pretty good laptop that that was purchased last year that didn’t give me any issues with editing 4K video on the fly. I am planning on downloading some of the sample R3D files to do some tests. Proxies would work also as these are only clips for social (IG/Twitter/FB) and then I could still have the full raw files for my editing throughout the week which is done on a Mac Pro and not as tight as a turnaround. So I’m not too terribly worried about it.

Based on the many replies here, my biggest concerns and hiccups left are

1) battery life. We have a ton of gold mounts, but I need to figure out how long each one lasts just so I know how many batteries I’ll be going through.
2) Variable frame rate audio - one thing I haven’t found in my research is if the scarlet w still records audio at higher frame rates.
3) price- my budget is around $10k. Though I don’t need a ton, it’s still hard to find everything in that range. I’ve been talking to a few people on here about what they’re selling and looking at full RTS kits vs buying bits and pieces from various sources. All seems to come out to be about the same. But I’m probably going to have to wait a bit more to save up since it’s looking like $10k May be too low for a scarlet-W

Besides that, not really worried about the workflow anymore, not worried about the low light stuff, not worried about the camera keeping up or even the hard drive space for all the footage. Autofocus worries me a bit as well but honestly as good as it was on the Sony A7, i found myself getting screwed by it sometimes when a lot was going on in the frame so I’m planning to invest in a good follow focus and trust myself over autofocus anyway
 
All the things that you mention you can do with a Red. You do not need a crew for operating a Red. Red has fantastic images, fantastic slow motion.
There are a few things that could give you problems
- Do you need to record audio at the same time? With Red you pretty much need a dual recorder.
- Red makes a bit of sound from the fan, would this be a problem?
- Can you handle the battery requirements. About 1 v-mount per hour. Canon has less for example.
- Do you need auto focus? Red does not really have that on Helium or Gemini
- Can you handle editing the Red files in post? The Red files are very flexible and can be used on a surprising amount of hardware. You can for example edit live in 1/4 resolution in Resolve on the latest Macbook Pro. Transcoding will be a bit snapper but is not a must.
- Can you afford the extras? You can buy many of the accessories used which can help get the price down

If you are ok with the above then I think Red will give you more flexibility than almost any other camera out there. More fun in grading, more slow motion, more flexibility in changing the configuration.

Hope that helps!
Andreas
 
Kerry Lofton said:
Based on the many replies here, my biggest concerns and hiccups left are

2) Variable frame rate audio - one thing I haven’t found in my research is if the scarlet w still records audio at higher frame rates.

No audio is recorded at the overcranked frame rates.

3) price- my budget is around $10k.

$10k will get you a Scarlet W brain for sure....DSMC2 is great, and will help future proof the investment. But you could get an Epic Dragon 6K simple kit for close to that price I would think. You can't shoot pro res, or do ipp2 in camera but I'm not sure if thats a deal breaker for you.
Click to expand...
 
Andreas - was just chatting with someone about a few of those things. You can add audio to my list of concerns. Hmmm my plan was to use the base expander and the wooden camera a box to do a shotgun mic on the camera. Audio is super important for a lot of the stuff I do. Players will often speak to my camera and I need to be able to use that audio. I’ve been seeing that even with the base expander, the audio coming out is not really clean. That worries me. For some projects, recording externally and syncing will be nothing more than an extra step but for a bulk of what I do, I won’t have time to offload and try to sync audio on the fly. This could be a potential deal breaker for me. Same with the fan noise. Again, sometimes we’ll have players candidly speak into the camera. Or I’ll go into the locker room postgame and capture the coaches speech to the team. Last thing I want is a fan being a distraction or ruining my audio.

I can handle the batter requirements. For games we travel with a ton of Anton gold mounts that are constantly being switched out at a charging station. I’ll have access to plenty.

I was a bit worried about autofocus because I pretty much always had it on on my Sony but to be quite honest, it’s screwed me a lot. I found myself fighting with it on my longer lens, especially for on field stuff. The line of scrimmage gets really jumbled when I try to focus on on a particular detail such as the ball pre snap or a foot or hand. So I’m not too worried about going manual. Especially cause I’ll be on shoulder mount with an EVF and follow focus. Will definitely miss having it but I just see it as me learning to be a better shoot by not relying on autofocus and learning to pull it manually. Not ideal but not the end of the world

And to respond to you and Rob about the budget and the accessories. I’m starting to worry a bit. The brain is not the problem. But man some of these accessories are kicking my budgets butt. I have some extra projects coming that may be able to help and I don’t need much, but the things I do need (opting for the 7 inch monitor over the 4.7, the EVF, the red side handle, the base expander, the extra memory) adds up quick. Makes me wonder if I’m in over my head. I’m afraid to buy an older model just cause it’s pushing my luck and having pro red would be nice.

The only saving grace for me in trying to make this work is I look at my other options and I’m in the same boat. Sony fx9 is running around 13-15k to get up and running and that’s not including getting the monitor and module for even being able to record 6k. The c500 mark 2 is about the same, ursa mini comes in at $10k with a lot more drawbacks. And the pocket cams are not really an option for me. So I keep telling myself, may as well suck it up and by the red.
 
If not RED, and there have been many good comments on the pros and cons, what about a combo of an EVA1 and an S1? I have the EVA1 for the types of run and gun shoots you are talking about. The internal codecs are lightweight in terms of file size and if you pair it with an Atomos recorder you get 5.7k ProRes RAW if you need it or can go straight to ProRes HQ. It can be modded to use PL mount if that is your preferred lens mount. Battery life is great! Frame rates in 4k up to 60fps with HVEC codec, record 240fps in 2k on atomos.

The S1 cuts well with it and could be your gimbal camera. Feel free to contact me if you have questions. These cameras can be found used for $4-5k now.

I would think the color science would be good enough straight out of camera for what you are filming. Audio is good. Not as good as a separate audio recorder but perfect for what you are talking about.
 
I would definitely not go RED unless you build it out with a host of accessories. The main drawback of RED for RandG is the inability of buttons and built in functions.
Internal ND? nope. Gotta lug around filters.
Auto WB? Nada.
Quickly change shutter speed, frame rate, compression ratio? > Laggy UI.
Sometimes just hitting record is slow to respond.
It can be very awkward to handhold for long periods of time without a shoulder rig- my arms have given out several times
The normal monitor sucks for daytime brightness
Onboard audio? I haven't found a super streamlined solution
You need beefy batteries and it eats them up relatively quick

All the times I've had problems with my RED were RandG scenarios. At a wedding I had the camera shut off because i wasn't accurately monitoring power and ruined a clip. (def my fault, but a crew would've helped)

I set it down too hard (cuz my arms gave out) and the matte box popped off and broke a filter–It's not a light camera.

Fs7 or c100-500 cameras seem way more in line with the RandG style.

Don't get me wrong I love my RED. The enormous amount of flexibility you get with R3d's in post is single-handedly a huge pro for RandG situations, but IMHO the drawbacks will need to be thoughtfully considered before a purchase.

My fav RandG setup with RED is Tilta Nucleus M handgrips with a shoulder Rig and small HD 702 bright and bright tangerine clip-on matte box. Def heavy but the focus/aperture controls at your fingertips is dope and bright monitor is clutch.


I
 
For sports coverage I would maybe go Sony F5 / F55 (is there any difference between these two models anymore, F5 enabled 4k awhile back I think?). I'd think that one of these is sub $10k used.

It's great in low light, not power hungry, has an ENG camera body, decent audio options and importantly it's not heavy. With the lens mount system you can get anything on there. PL, B4, etc. My only complaint shooting sports doco / eng with that camera is it also has a long boot up time like the red before you can be recording.

Another nice choice might be the Varicam LT, though I have no idea the price on those on the used/new market right now.

Not as sexy as RED, and I don't think the picture is as nice...but it will be quite a bit easier to work with on your shoulder all day.
 
RobMNeilson said:
Kerry Lofton said:
Based on the many replies here, my biggest concerns and hiccups left are

2) Variable frame rate audio - one thing I haven’t found in my research is if the scarlet w still records audio at higher frame rates.

No audio is recorded at the overcranked frame rates.

.
Click to expand...

Wrong here. If you set the project frame rate the same as desired FPS speed you totally get audio. Say you want to go 50 fps with audio - just set your project time base to 50fps also and gotcha.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for all the input everyone. Again, gives me a lot to think about. Kinda sucks because I’d just hate to spend nearly as much money only to feel like I’m settling on some of these other options. These are good points for sure, just sucks because it’s like meeting your hero and they’re not what you thought. I’ve used a lot of the cameras mentioned here and they just don’t do it for me. Not like the RED. Also, what makes my decision a little hard is that like I said, this is not just for football. I do a ton of stuff outside of football. I’m just going to happen to use it for my job, but I’m buying it for just as many outside projects. If I were buying it for strictly football, I’d make the team foot the bill and wouldn’t have to worry about a thing. But I’m getting my production company off the ground and who knows how long I’ll be still shooting sports depending on how that goes. So I guess I’d just hate to disqualify this camera for a little piece of the puzzle as well.

Again, all really good replies and stuff to think about. I’m going hands on with one this week so there’s still that as well as I continue to make my decision and move towards a purchase next month
 
Think of Red as a brilliant image capture device. Extremely good and powerful for cspturing images. But if there is a high need for auto focus built in ND filters and audio it may not be the most suited for all cases. Many of those points can be corrected with more equipment but will increase costs. We have the Revolva ND filters, focus motors and high quality audio recorders. They all give a far better result than what is built in but add complexity and cost.
 
Built in ND’s are not a huge factor for me. I went the past two seasons without them on the Sony a7 and it hadn’t been a problem. Same with autofocus. Yes I use it now because it’s there but it’s screwed me out of more shots than I can count and recently this past season I’ve switched to manual focus and already own a follow focus. The only question that remains would be the audio which at this point, I’m not thinking I’d allow to be a deal breaker. No camera is perfect but seems this one checks more boxes than many others for me
 
Kerry Lofton said:
Aside from an unfair comparison to RED, I love my Sony. It’s just time for a switch, mainly because not having 4K/60 sucked and I can’t wait any longer for the A7siii and it’s ghost specs. Besides RED, my other option was the ursa mini pro G2 (over the pocket cameras because although the price is great, I hated getting all the parts, etc to kit my Sony out, even though I know the RED is similar and will have to kit it out too :) ) anyway, I’ve seen some really beautiful images from Blackmagic and I’ve seen some stuff that is a turn off. Again, there’s nothing like RED. Same thing with FX9. Not a fan of the MXF files and at that point, after dropping $15k to get it where I need it to be I could have the RED I’ve always admired.

Anyway, again, sorry for the long post and thank you to anyone who read all that. Any advice you all have on my approach to this, buying used, or just anything in general, I’m open to hearing and learning. Hope you all have a great day!
Click to expand...

If you love your Sony (and are sick of waiting for the a7Smk3... which honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it never arrives ever! It is a mythical beast people have dreamed up, not based on reality) then you should seriously consider deeply researching the Panasonic S1H. It is an amazing killer camera, the only hybrid camera to ever get Netflix certification! And the cheapie Panasonic S1 makes for a great B Cam alongside your S1H.
 
RobMNeilson said:
For sports coverage I would maybe go Sony F5 / F55 (is there any difference between these two models anymore, F5 enabled 4k awhile back I think?). I'd think that one of these is sub $10k used.

It's great in low light, not power hungry, has an ENG camera body, decent audio options and importantly it's not heavy. With the lens mount system you can get anything on there. PL, B4, etc. My only complaint shooting sports doco / eng with that camera is it also has a long boot up time like the red before you can be recording.

Another nice choice might be the Varicam LT, though I have no idea the price on those on the used/new market right now.

Not as sexy as RED, and I don't think the picture is as nice...but it will be quite a bit easier to work with on your shoulder all day.
Click to expand...

Sony F55 has a global shutter, and yes not only is it sub $10K, but you can even find it for sub $7K!
With the Sony F5 being even cheaper, sub $5K! I'd say if looking around for an owner op camera (which isn't an hybrid) on a budget, it is hard not to consider an F5 or an FS7 (sub $3K!!! just wow, so cheap now)

Panasonic Varicam LT has seen a price slash which has seen it drop to just under US$10K for the body brand new. That makes it very competitively priced! A good choice if you want great image quality, and love the dual ISO feature. Plus you've got the obvious Panasonic S1H (or EVA1) as the most kick ass ever small B Cam to have alongside your Varicam LT.

The Varicam LT is a little on the bulky side (relative to say a FS7), but as you can handle an AMIRA, then you'll manage a Varicam LT just fine indeed!
 
Kerry Lofton said:
Audy- the kinefinity definitely caught my attention. However, I’ve done some research and it seems like there’s a lot on paper that people aren’t sure will actually live up to the hype. With an investment this big I’d rather not be one of the early adopters, perhaps I’ll check it out down the line once’s it’s built it’s name a bit. It is tempting.
Click to expand...

Kinefinity already has a good track record of delivering with their existing Mavo and Terra series of cameras (and not to mention their older cameras too! Kinefinity has been around much longer than people realize).

The downside though is that they're not as well known. Is kinda a Catch 22!

Kerry Lofton said:
The other camera is actually an arri Alexa Classic. Now I know a ton of people will say “hold up, everything you said you needed goes out the window” haha trust me, I know. I’m not crazy about the size and weight, the risk of buying a camera that old, the old, hard to find and expensive media, the hassle of that PL mount, and did I mention the weight? But goodness, even at just 2k and limited frame rate that thing produces gorgeous images and for roughly $6-$7.5k it’s hard not to think of all the other gear like lights and lenses and stuff I could buy to maximize my budget. Decisions decisions
Click to expand...

For your kind of work an ARRI AMIRA would be much much more suitable than a Classic! (plus, you've already been using them!)

They've become shockingly cheap on the secondhand market. Isn't too hard to find them for sub $15K

And with some luck and persistence you could possibly even find an AMIRA body for closer to your $10K budget than to $15K

Kerry Lofton said:
Thanks Rob. I hadn’t heard of any team in the nfl with them either but apparently there are quite a few according the rep from RED I spoke with.
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Of course he'd say that!
But the reality is there are far far more AMIRA/FS7/F5/F55 cameras shooting with sports teams than REDs! (heck, I bet Panasonic with their VaricamLT/EVA1/S1H/GH5/etc have far more cameras in use by sports teams than RED branded cameras)
 
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Thanks for all the info David. I’ve officially decided to go with a RED. There will for sure be done things I need to work around. Very few, minor things. But after researching, weighing everything, all the advice, I just can’t see myself spending that much and not getting the camera I really want. Just too close to settle
 
Alex Lubensky said:
You didn’t mention - are you working handheld, or on a gimbal. For a handheld camera I find Red really comfortable, especially with photo lenses. The way you can kit it (side handle just screws right into the top of the body), how fast you can do it - is just exclusive. Your camera can shrink almost to a brain size, or could grow 0,7 meters in size in 10 minutes.

Though, the camera is batt-hungry, it consumes around 65wH, which means you’ll have to carry around some V-locks to spend your day. While you fly a lot, it’s a thing to consider (there are IATA limits on batts).

R3D workflow is fast, in Premiere Pro on a PC it’s a non-brainer for most machines, while Resolve experience is going to be more power-hungry. Also on dsmc2 you can record prores proxies for a fast turn-around.

I’d say rent one, work a week before buying - get used to a workflow, see if it does fit your work. If it’s limiting somewhere, I’d say think twice - in the end it’s only you who sees the difference in your field, so if your job becomes harder it might not be worth a hassle.
Click to expand...

When Alex talks...listen.
 
Right Rob! I’ve seen some that get that low but they are few and far between and seem like they come with some heavy wear and use. My budget is around $10k but if I could push it to $15-$20k I’d get a Gemini over an Amira anyway
 
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