Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Thinking about buying an Epic Dragon. Am I insane?

A

Art Chong

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
132
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Howdy REDUsers,

I've been noodling on an Epic Dragon purchase and was hoping to hear the thoughts of current RED users as to the viability of my plans.

Here are some bullet points:

- I plan to purchase an Epic Dragon system to rent out and use in owner/operator situations.

- My budget is a little above $60,000 cash. I would not have a loan to pay back.

- I would like to make my money back in 24 months.

- Income from this endeavor would NOT be my primary source of income, though it would be nice if it could be.

- I currently shoot with a 5Dmk3 and have some decent gear that will carry over, mostly Zeiss ZE lenses and some bits of rigging.

- I have some experience shooting for paying clients. Nothing major, but I've shot a micro budget indie feature, several shorts, several music videos and weddings, and a decent commercial/promo video for a real corporation.

- I am very capable from a technical standpoint (in my dayjob, I'm a designer/programmer) and have no trouble wrapping my head around camera tech.


So given the above, my questions are:

- Does spending this kind of cash for a camera sound completely insane?

- Not being a rental house, do I have a shot at making my money back on the camera?

- Would I be better off just upgrading from a DSLR to something that's not so high-end like the epic?



Some thoughts on my goals:

At the end of the 24 months, I would like to end up with a camera that has completely paid itself off that I could use for my own passion projects. I do NOT have aspirations to become a professional DP. I want to direct and fund my own projects (crazy, I know) and I want to own my own means of production. If the Dragon delivers on its promises (and I have no reason to think that it won't) I think the dynamic range, resolution, framerate and formfactor makes the Epic Dragon the pinnacle of the modern digital cinema camera. Short of global shutter without the motion mount, I do not see what else we could possibly want without rethinking the technology behind digital cameras in general.

Do I sound completely insane? What are your thoughts as professionals in the industry?


Thank you ahead of time.
 
Hi Art,

I don't know how much I can help as I haven't considered upgrading to a Dragon yet (due to the cost), but I do have experience in being an owner operator of a RED cam (RED Scarlet) and making money from it. So if you're interested here's my take:

I think it's extremely optimistic to think you can fully repay your investment within two years from purely rentals. I have seen people on this forum rent Epics at $500 with an operator and I doubt that the price will really increase that much with Dragon. The amount of owner operators is rising all the time and as the price of cameras fall, the real emphasis is on the capability of the shooter. With this in mind, I think recouping your investment is possible however, it requires a large amount of dedication and passion for the business. As you have said, this would not be your only for of employment and I am not sure whether you would be able to put enough time into building a name for yourself. I am not trying to put you off the idea, I just think that renting would be a better option if you are just looking to shoot a few personal projects (and save you a load of money).

In my opinion there are only two types of people who should consider buying a Dragon (or a RED camera in general):
  • Extremely rich People
  • People who make a living out of using it
Hope this helps and let me know if you decide to buy one!

P.S I am starting to think you may be in the first category as you consider an Epic as "not so high end"...

Adam
 
Thanks Adam,

I appreciate the input. Two things in reply to your comments:

1) I would not be renting out the Epic as the only form of income to recoup. As I said, I'm currently shooting part-time and would continue to do so with the Epic. I do take your point, however.

2)
Adam Palmer said:
P.S I am starting to think you may be in the first category as you consider an Epic as "not so high end"...
Adam
Click to expand...

I do think the Epic is high-end! This may have been caused by poor wording on my part. I was asking whether it would be better to upgrade to something that's NOT as high end as the Epic, say a Sony F5 or something else in the 20-30k price range. Scarlet is not that interesting to me because I feel like a fully kitted out Scarlet isn't that much cheaper from an Epic.
 
No worries Art,

I think my main point is that I really believe that you have put your all into building your name/business if you want to repay the money you spend. If you're willing to do that then I see no reason why you can't make a success of it. My personal opinion is maybe start smaller (as you have mentioned). Dropping 60k is a big commitment, I remember before I even considered buying a Scarlet I trained on an Epic and already had a lot of clients and contacts lined up to make sure it wouldn't just be sat on my desk. I would also familiarise yourself with the workflow, rent an Epic/Scarlet and network a lot with people in the industry. As you have mentioned, you already have a MKIII and some experience shooting, maybe build on this and see if your clients would be willing to pay the additional cost for the Dragon. I think the main thing I am trying to say is that the most important factor when making money from your camera is YOU! If you are willing to invest a large amount of money into a camera then you must also invest a lot of time/effort and money into making yourself a better shooter.

Thanks for clearing that up lol, I thought Epic was pretty high end :P

I also agree with you regarding the Scarlet as, with the price changes, the Epic would be my first choice if I were in the same position. Have you considered the new Black Magic camera? I Know it's not a RED but it certainly makes gorgeous images and for the price is pretty unbelievable.

Adam
 
The biggest question is whether or not your current clients can afford/want/need the capabilities of a Dragon vs DSLR? If not, then can you devote enough time to finding new clients that will want/need/afford the Epic Dragon? You could, instead, get a used Scarlet in the user marketplace forum, then either upgrade that to an Epic-X (and eventually an Epic Dragon) or a Scarlet Dragon. Either of those routes you take may save you a few grand and let you test the waters a bit more without committing a full $60k.
 
Adam,

I definitely hear you about having to work hard at this in order to pay the camera off. I'll have to do some more thinking about whether owning an Epic really fits in with what I want to do long-term, but I suppose that's why I posted this topic at all.

Re: Black Magic camera.

Honestly, the camera seems so exciting yet so flawed that I haven't really considered it. Coming from a DSLR, I'm looking to move into a more integrated system as opposed to making yet another "sensor in a box" work with a crap ton of third party gear. (I know, I know, I'd still have buy extra gear, third party or otherwise, to make an Epic usable but I think my point stands.)
 
You have to think it trough. Renting out anything comes with a lot of work and hassle. I personally think it's not any bit easier to buy a camera for 60k USD than buying a car and renting it out. Actually a car has many more possible users than a red epic camera. Also the camera industry are at the moment very saturated. You are not the only one that have this plan, on the conterary there is a huge amount of DPs and other shooters that thinks the same way, as prices for cameras has dropped more are likely to invest and think that they will get their money back. There is far more epics on the market now then there ever was 35mm film cameras, and there are alexas, sony cams, BM cams and all other kind of options out there as well all competing for the same clients. However if you have a big client base and a good setup so you can preform a good rental option in comparison with the rest which is normally is big rental houses then you might be onto something. Basically the people that need a camera needs to have a reason to go to you instead of turning towards a big rental house. Normally clients that uses a camera like the Epic want also to rent dollies cranes, lights and all other sorts of equipment. When they rent all that and camera from a rental house they get a discount. That discount is most of the time bigger than a normal day rate for a camera. But if they only rent part of their equipment form the rental house and then use your camera, then they are likely not get the same discount for their light etc. At least thats what I experienced.

Even so we managed to bring back our epic investment many times over. I think the main reasons for that is that we get to the clients before the rental houses, we do mainly post and have more meetings and such with the clients and we can provide them with tests etc and our camera is available to them in a different way. It's more a complementary to our post bussiness than anything else. I would rent it out for no cost to have an advantage over other post houses if needed. And also we use it with our milo, no other camera gets on the rig and we got the only milo in scandinavia. so basically I would never think of getting an epic as a standalone investment, as you need so much more things around it to make it fly since a camera body is such small part of a film production.
 
Art Chong said:
Adam,



Re: Black Magic camera.

Honestly, the camera seems so exciting yet so flawed that I haven't really considered it. Coming from a DSLR, I'm looking to move into a more integrated system as opposed to making yet another "sensor in a box" work with a crap ton of third party gear. (I know, I know, I'd still have buy extra gear, third party or otherwise, to make an Epic usable but I think my point stands.)
Click to expand...

I thank the BMCC last year for helping me push towards a Scarlet.

Waited months for my BMCC then the BT Scarlet's were announced :)
 
BrendanLeahy said:
The biggest question is whether or not your current clients can afford/want/need the capabilities of a Dragon vs DSLR? If not, then can you devote enough time to finding new clients that will want/need/afford the Epic Dragon? You could, instead, get a used Scarlet in the user marketplace forum, then either upgrade that to an Epic-X (and eventually an Epic Dragon) or a Scarlet Dragon. Either of those routes you take may save you a few grand and let you test the waters a bit more without committing a full $60k.
Click to expand...

I hadn't really thought about used before, which is strange since most of the gear I have, I bought used to save on cost. Something I'll have to look into. At a glance, there seems to be plenty of activity in the REDUser market place. Thanks Brendan.
 
Art Chong said:
I hadn't really thought about used before, which is strange since most of the gear I have, I bought used to save on cost. Something I'll have to look into. At a glance, there seems to be plenty of activity in the REDUser market place. Thanks Brendan.
Click to expand...

The REDMarketPlace has saved me tons of cash.

Almost addicting that link :)
 
Hi Art,

Just some personal experience...I have both the Red One and the Epic (soon to be Dragon), and since I have them I have never rented them out. I actually refuse to rent them out, they only are used by other DOP's in certain productions when I am involved, as producer, and not DOP, then I let others shoot with them.
For me, these cameras are more of a personal tool, not to be rented out, that is why they are affordable.
In some way, I think Jim Jannard had the idea of making a camera that every one (and when I say every one I mean camera professionals) could own and make their films.
So, I think you should approach buying an Epic as a great tool, as actually in my opinion, one of the best tools available for our profession, at a price that you can actually own and afford.
Not sure if I was able to say what I think. Hope you understand.
Hope this helps
 
Antonio Forjaz said:
Hi Art,

Just some personal experience...I have both the Red One and the Epic (soon to be Dragon), and since I have them I have never rented them out. I actually refuse to rent them out, they only are used by other DOP's in certain productions when I am involved, as producer, and not DOP, then I let others shoot with them.
For me, these cameras are more of a personal tool, not to be rented out, that is why they are affordable.
In some way, I think Jim Jannard had the idea of making a camera that every one (and when I say every one I mean camera professionals) could own and make their films.
So, I think you should approach buying an Epic as a great tool, as actually in my opinion, one of the best tools available for our profession, at a price that you can actually own and afford.
Not sure if I was able to say what I think. Hope you understand.
Hope this helps
Click to expand...

This I agree with. Renting out any Red camera usually comes with trouble, You kind of have to do it with staff included. As there are so many configs, menues and such. I think that is the main reason why people prefer to rent alexas. It's more of a one button camera that does not change framerates and operating system every other week... Even so, I prefer an epic every day of the week but most rental clients dont.
 
Antonio Forjaz said:
Hi Art,

Just some personal experience...I have both the Red One and the Epic (soon to be Dragon), and since I have them I have never rented them out. I actually refuse to rent them out, they only are used by other DOP's in certain productions when I am involved, as producer, and not DOP, then I let others shoot with them.
For me, these cameras are more of a personal tool, not to be rented out, that is why they are affordable.
In some way, I think Jim Jannard had the idea of making a camera that every one (and when I say every one I mean camera professionals) could own and make their films.
So, I think you should approach buying an Epic as a great tool, as actually in my opinion, one of the best tools available for our profession, at a price that you can actually own and afford.
Not sure if I was able to say what I think. Hope you understand.
Hope this helps
Click to expand...

I think I see what you're saying. You're equating Epic ownership with say, owning a medium format stills camera and a studio? Meaning, you own the tools for content creation, but the business is about the content, not the tools?
 
exactly
 
This seems much better advice than your previous reasoning with regard to renting and owner-operator use! It doesn't sound like your current client base requires Dragon quality and it will be very hard to make your money back fast if market conditions continue as they have. Hugely enough too, is that pesky outstanding issue, of both when and whether you will be able to actually edit those Dragon RAW files without have to agree to more monthly charges on the Cloud or somewhere else! If you're thinking about it for your own projects, not just someone else's, it may not just be $60K. It could very well prove to be $60K plus a monthly software fee. Time will tell!
 
I completely agree with Antonio. The reason I own my own EPIC is because I want to have a powerful tool that is an extension of myself. I use it on everything, spend a lot of time with it, and practicing with it has made using my EPIC instinctual. When you can use a tool so much that you get beyond the interface to the point where you can capture the moment and convey emotion, that's when things really become magical.

Before my EPIC, I had a SCARLET. I was out of town on another shoot that already had cameras provided, so I left my SCARLET with a few friends to use. I came back, checked in on my gear, and was surprised to find that some of my parts (RED arm, REDvolt Battery, 1/4"-20 bolts) were missing. My friends had used my camera on several shoots in several different locations, and they could not find the parts that went missing anywhere. Needless to say, it was a pain to figure out how to deal with this and replace all the parts. And all this happened with friends.

Imagine, for a moment, if you have an EPIC fully booked up for a month's worth of rentals back to back to back. Let's say an accident happens, and someone does something to your EPIC that RED has to repair. Then, let's say this fix takes a week turnaround time. You'll have to have a contingency plan for how you will provide your next client with an EPIC DRAGON while your main camera is out for repairs. Do you get a second camera body? Do you connect them with another rental source? If neither of those work in time, do you just ask them to reschedule? Rental houses work well because they have loads of gear, and generally multiple camera bodies, or they're part of a network that can overnight-ship them another camera body or another part from other rental houses.

Bjorn said it best - renting a camera is like renting a car. Imagine buying a $60,000 5-series BMW then trying to rent that out against Enterprise. It could be tough, or it could be easy, depending upon your relationships with your clients, and what service you provide. Now, if you're renting that car with yourself as a high-end Chauffeur who has all the charisma in the world, then people will pay you to drive them around to special events because of the experience they have with you as their driver. Again, it comes back to you.

The same goes for renting a camera. If you make this decision based on yourself, and the RED DRAGON is a powerful extension of your own abilities, then that makes a lot of sense! Then people will book you because of your abilities, and they will pay for your camera rental because you know it better than anything else, you're comfortable with it, and you've proven it.

I must say though, if you have the means and can make an EPIC purchase make sense for your business, then you will be blown away at what you can do with a camera like this. You'll go from your previous state of wishing you could capture something in a certain way - to truly being able to translate your imagination into a beautiful moving picture. Also, you might consider picking up a used EPIC-X package on REDUser then upgrading to DRAGON later. It could save you some money and spread out your expenses over time.

Anyway, those are my thoughts based on my personal experiences. You'll have to reflect on this all, because it certainly is a big decision. It's smart that you're asking these questions.
 
Really the same for me in terms of use.

The Epic was purchased for Company use only (myself and a few others). One project fully paid for the camera (ie we used one job's camera/post budget - plus company profit etc, to fund the camera).

Now we have an Epic that's utilised when required (there's another project coming early next year) - and we make a profit as the camera rental stays internal... plus reshoots or prep time is more under out control.

Camera hire is a risky business... IMO you need X2 bodies. 1 as a backup and 1 as your main hire... plus some type of kit infrastructure.

When I hired in the past (back in the older days of pre Digital or even recently), I'd always choose a larger rental company... one that could offer a backup body and a quick turnaround for parts etc. Now there are lots of people who get a single kit (with only a handful of accessories) and hire out... this can be dangerous as there's simply no protection (for client or rental co.).

I agree with Björn, Burke and Antonio's views. Get one if you have the work for it yourself... but don't expect to make rentals a way to get back your purchase costs.

However, if you have a client base that wants/demands an Epic - go for it.

If not, carefully and fully consider your TCO as well.
 
Art Chong said:
Thanks guys, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Lots and lots to think about for sure

And that used Epic-X is starting to sound really appealing.
Click to expand...

If I were you, I'd just get whatever the upcoming Dragonized Scarlet is and then use that for a while, so you can amass knowledge about the camera/workflow without too much of an initial investment as that body will certainly meet your needs. Then you can move up when you really feel it's worth it and the cost will likely be significantly less expensive after Epic Dragon has been on the market for a while.
 
I read through this thread rather quickly so pardon me if I missed something but I didn't see where anyone pointed out to you the length of time you will likely be waiting before you can even by an Epic Dragon. I think you might have to wait quite some time - behind a variety of people trading and upgrading - before you will see one shipping from the RED store. Just a thought. :smiley:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top