The Update Thread

[Steve DiMaggio]

I'm kinda hoping for a no-interest plan as well... 12-24 payments may make Weapon Helium a reality for me...

hit up numerica in california, they are helping me out

 

[Matthew Quinn]

This feels like a motivation for Matthew to set up a "fantasy football" style setup with monitors auto-refreshing reduser and RED store pages, while also maintaining the livechat. This is our superbowl sunday...

Hehe gonna set up camp

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I'm kinda hoping for a no-interest plan as well... 12-24 payments may make Weapon Helium a reality for me...

Not going to lie, that would be awesome because I don't have the money at the moment to go from Scarlet-W to Epic-W and upgrade my CF-Weapon to Weapon -Helium... but I feel like they can't do it for 0% interest because the bank is going to need some money, unless they are financing the loans themselves but I don't see that happening. But for all I know, RED has some serious cash in the bank and is going to use it to attract more buyers.

 

[Spencer Weaver]

This feels like a motivation for Matthew to set up a "fantasy football" style setup with monitors auto-refreshing reduser and RED store pages, while also maintaining the livechat. This is our superbowl sunday...

haha, now that is a good idea! Matthew you da'man!

 

[Tim Daust]

a no interest finance plan? how is this possible? low interest of course.. but none? or do you mean some sort of 0% apr credit card?

 

[Andy Roberts]

a no interest finance plan? how is this possible? low interest of course.. but none? or do you mean some sort of 0% apr credit card?

Apple's iPhone Upgrade Every Year Plan is a no-interest finance plan. BUT, in addition to the phone, they make you buy the Extended Warranty, which statistically speaking doesn't get used much. So I think the bank and Apple both make SOME money off of the warranty profit. Whether "interest" or "insurance", financial institutions know how to make money.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

a no interest finance plan? how is this possible? low interest of course.. but none? or do you mean some sort of 0% apr credit card?

"No interest" isn't ever really no interest since banks need to make money, too - or companies need to earn something on their cash. But, it can look like no interest if the financing source earns money under another guise. Automobile companies do this all the time - "Zero percent APR or $1500 cash back." What we quickly realize is that they are giving up something in this transaction - and you can have it now ("cash back") or take it over time ("zero percent APR"). Essentially, they are discounting the product and using the interest rate strategy to make it easier for the customer to make the decision to buy.

What is relevant these days is that interest rates are incredibly low in general and it doesn't take much for financing sources to make a profit on their outstanding loans.

In our case, if RED is decides to offer "no interest financing", they simply realize that it is worth giving up a little of their margin to increase sales. That said, even low interest plans would be pretty helpful.

 

[Andy Roberts]

I posted this on the Helium vs Dragon thread, but I think it is important for people who are straddling between S-W and E-W, which is who the amazing deal is geared toward initially.

This misconception keeps getting passed around... that the FOV (aka crop factor) is worse for E-W than S-W when in actuality, the difference in frame rates and FOV between S-W and E-W is 10% or less. E-W **STARTS WITH 15% better FOV** than S-W starts with... which is a selling point in its favor.
I talked with a Raven owner who said they were surprised at just how much crop factor there was on a Raven.
Plus, with E-W, you end up with higher resolution slo-mo footage, which is good if you are actually finishing to 4K or pulling stills.
E-W 8K to S-W 5K
E-W 6.5K to S-W 5K for 48FPS
E-W 5K to S-W 4K for 120FPS

 

[Tom Dowler]

I posted this on the Helium vs Dragon thread, but I think it is important for people who are straddling between S-W and E-W, which is who the amazing deal is geared toward initially.

This misconception keeps getting passed around... that the FOV (aka crop factor) is worse for E-W than S-W when in actuality, the difference in frame rates and FOV between S-W and E-W is 10% or less. E-W **STARTS WITH 15% better FOV** than S-W starts with... which is a selling point in its favor.
I talked with a Raven owner who said they were surprised at just how much crop factor there was on a Raven.
Plus, with E-W, you end up with higher resolution slo-mo footage, which is good if you are actually finishing to 4K or pulling stills.
E-W 8K to S-W 5K
E-W 6.5K to S-W 5K for 48FPS
E-W 5K to S-W 4K for 120FPS

Really good point, however.... for me it's about the jump in data and processing power required to get the same FOV. If I shoot at 5K on the S-W, I need to shoot at a little under 7K on the E-W for the same FOV. Someone better at math can chime in with how much more data that represents.

 

[Jarred Land]

Really good point, however.... for me it's about the jump in data and processing power required to get the same FOV. If I shoot at 5K on the S-W, I need to shoot at a little under 7K on the E-W for the same FOV. Someone better at math can chime in with how much more data that represents.

You shouldn't be comparing the two cameras as equal ways to get to the same image. Yes more resolution requires more horsepower. It requires more data and you can push it, if you want, to almost double the data rates as Scarlet-W . Epic-W isn't trying to compete against Scarlet-W, Epic-W exists for those that desire a better image, with more resolution, less sensor smear, and better color. Its sort of like comparing a Porsche against a Ferrari and asking why the Ferrari with almost double the horsepower gets lower gas millage and the insurance costs more.

If people think that Epic-W is a stretch for them, they shouldn't be looking at that option. As many people have stated including ourselves, The Scarlet-W arguably takes better images than any other camera on the market that doesn't say RED on the side, no matter what the price.

Yes the big dogs use the big cameras. Michael Bay uses Weapon Heliums to shoot the important shots on transformers. But he also uses multiple Ravens right along side of them each and every day. Be happy with whatever camera you have or are getting and take comfort that the images you will take with it will be better than most.

 

[Elsie N]

Not going to lie, that would be awesome because I don't have the money at the moment to go from Scarlet-W to Epic-W and upgrade my CF-Weapon to Weapon -Helium... but I feel like they can't do it for 0% interest because the bank is going to need some money, unless they are financing the loans themselves but I don't see that happening. But for all I know, RED has some serious cash in the bank and is going to use it to attract more buyers.

I've got a deposit down for a Scarlet W that I'm considering withdrawing even though I would really like to get an Epic W. I could, but don't want to get a zero percent card since those things revert to 20% plus once the 0 % time runs out. And with the Fed threatening to raise interest rates, the cards I have are now offering only 1 year of zero percent interest (after an up-front charge of 3 %.)

When I used those in the past I absolutely knew I would be able to pay them off before the allotted time ran out. Even set them up as an installment loan and paid them off in equal monthly amounts.

So now I am completely debt free (or would be if I decided to pay off the last couple of months of these cc amounts) and would feel at ease taking on the cost of the Scarlet W to Epic W on a time payment basis with the camera as collateral, knowing if something totally unexpected happened I wouldn't revert to some outrageous predatory interest rate hike if I were a little late on a payment.

Speaking of credit card bad practice, I'm only going to relate my experience with one of them in re: the 0% interest offer.

That card was a Chase card that I got through Amazon. The first thing different from all my other cards is they wouldn't allow me to setup an automatic payment plan other than paying the minimum or paying off the balance.

Because of this I missed a payment but was contacted the next day saying it was missed and that if I paid before the end of day there would be no problem. I only owed something like $1500 so I just paid it off to keep from being late in the future. Then the next month I get another notification that I was a day late on paying my balance. I checked and there was a $25 late payment from the previous month and another $15 late payment for the current month.

I paid that and called their number and made it clear in no uncertain terms to the foreign gentleman I wanted to cancel my card. He assured me that it was done and that there would be no more charges. Soon after, I received another bill stating I owed $.37. Yes, thirty-seven cents! I paid that and emailed them that this was the last bit of blood they would suck from my hematopoietic-financial self.

I've been more than satisfied with AMEX over the past couple of decades and the Discover Card more recently. Some of the Visa/Mastercards have performed satisfactorily so in my experience the Chase card seems to be the one that tries the hardest to get someone to that 20% plus interest rate.

Maybe other's experience has been different... just wanted to put mine out there as added information when considering options.

 

[Tom Dowler]

You shouldn't be comparing the two cameras as equal ways to get to the same image. Yes more resolution requires more horsepower. It requires more data and you can push it, if you want, to almost double the data rates as Scarlet-W . Epic-W isn't trying to compete against Scarlet-W, Epic-W exists for those that desire a better image, with more resolution, less sensor smear, and better color. Its sort of like comparing a Porsche against a Ferrari and asking why the Ferrari with almost double the horsepower gets lower gas millage and the insurance costs more.

If people think that Epic-W is a stretch for them, they shouldn't be looking at that option. As many people have stated including ourselves, The Scarlet-W arguably takes better images than any other camera on the market that doesn't say RED on the side, no matter what the price.

Yes the big dogs use the big cameras. Michael Bay uses Weapon Heliums to shoot the important stuff on transformers. But he also uses multiple Ravens right along side of them each and every day.

Exactly. Different tools for different jobs.

I make the point about data because, shooting docs, I get through a lot more data than someone shooting narrative. The difference between 8K and 5K in terms of how long it takes me to offload mags, the amount of RAID storage I need, etc, is significant.

Therefore S-W is the better choice for me. Although having the latest and greatest would be lovely

 

[Matthew Quinn]

You shouldn't be comparing the two cameras as equal ways to get to the same image. Yes more resolution requires more horsepower. It requires more data and you can push it, if you want, to almost double the data rates as Scarlet-W . Epic-W isn't trying to compete against Scarlet-W, Epic-W exists for those that desire a better image, with more resolution, less sensor smear, and better color. Its sort of like comparing a Porsche against a Ferrari and asking why the Ferrari with almost double the horsepower gets lower gas millage and the insurance costs more.

If people think that Epic-W is a stretch for them, they shouldn't be looking at that option. As many people have stated including ourselves, The Scarlet-W arguably takes better images than any other camera on the market that doesn't say RED on the side, no matter what the price.

Yes the big dogs use the big cameras. Michael Bay uses Weapon Heliums to shoot the important shots on transformers. But he also uses multiple Ravens right along side of them each and every day. Be happy with whatever camera you have or are getting and take comfort that the images you will take with it will be better than most.

the SCARLET-W is so perfect. I'm working on a way to get a new one once I send #93 in

 

[Andy Roberts]

You shouldn't be comparing the two cameras as equal ways to get to the same image.

Thanks for the reminder Jarred. I hope it was clear that my effort was simply to help explain that there is no LOSS in FOV or frame rates should one choose to go E-W. For me, it is a step UP in every good way. In my mind, more data is the point... I want more data... better stills, better oversampling, less noise when downscaled to 4K or 2K deliverables.

 

[Adam Welch]

I say the one thing that makes me happy is even though I won't be getting an Epic-W I have a friend in town who will be, so I'll get a chance to check it out either way.

 

[Jarred Land]

Thanks for the reminder Jarred. I hope it was clear that my effort was simply to help explain that there is no LOSS in FOV or frame rates should one choose to go E-W. For me, it is a step UP in every good way. In my mind, more data is the point... I want more data... better stills, better oversampling, less noise when downscaled to 4K or 2K deliverables.

Yes sorry that wasnt directed to you, you have done a very good job and thanks for helping explain things along the way.,

One of the requests we had from Dragon customers is that they loved shooting 6k but since that image circle was bigger than APS-C/Super 35 they had some issues with lenses vignetting.

Helium lets you shoot those lenses in 6K and not sacrifice that resolution choice. Helium crop at 6k is the perfect size for APS-C which still a lot , some of the best , lenses are designed to.

And if your lens support the larger image circle... you can shoot 8K all day long and get an even bigger image.

 

[Scott Evans]

Yes sorry that wasnt directed to you, you have done a very good job and thanks for helping explain things along the way.,

One of the requests we had from Dragon customers is that they loved shooting 6k but since that image circle was bigger than APS-C/Super 35 they had some issues with lenses vignetting.

Helium lets you shoot those lenses in 6K and not sacrifice that resolution choice. Helium crop at 6k is the perfect size for APS-C which still a lot , some of the best , lenses are designed to.

And if your lens support the larger image circle... you can shoot 8K all day long and get an even bigger image.

Hey Jarred, sorry if you've answered this a million times, but is there a list anywhere that has which ef lenses covers epic-w at which resolutions?

 

[Tom Dowler]

The other factor is that it is said that it's better to shoot higher res at higher compression than lower res at lower compression.

I would love to know what compression you'd have to use at 7k on the E-W to use no more data than you would shooting 5K on the S-W at, say, 8:1.


(although I still can't afford the extra $10k for the E-W, so I'm just torturing myself at this point!)

 

[Curtis boggs]

You shouldn't be comparing the two cameras as equal ways to get to the same image. Yes more resolution requires more horsepower. It requires more data and you can push it, if you want, to almost double the data rates as Scarlet-W . Epic-W isn't trying to compete against Scarlet-W, Epic-W exists for those that desire a better image, with more resolution, less sensor smear, and better color. Its sort of like comparing a Porsche against a Ferrari and asking why the Ferrari with almost double the horsepower gets lower gas millage and the insurance costs more.

If people think that Epic-W is a stretch for them, they shouldn't be looking at that option. As many people have stated including ourselves, The Scarlet-W arguably takes better images than any other camera on the market that doesn't say RED on the side, no matter what the price.

Yes the big dogs use the big cameras. Michael Bay uses Weapon Heliums to shoot the important shots on transformers. But he also uses multiple Ravens right along side of them each and every day. Be happy with whatever camera you have or are getting and take comfort that the images you will take with it will be better than most.

This is a great post, ..

For me, I really can't "justify" going to E-W if in order to "justify" it i need to have clients demanding it or Michael Bay calling me for some B cam work.
However, at my stage in motion imaging I want the best images I can produce. 30+ years of stills work and knowing how to expose real transparency film
have helped me on this quest. PLus my wife said I can spend the money !!!

Data rates scare me too but honestly I've seen where some are editing on a dang laptop! I might have to learn a different
workflow then my current R3d / Scarlet-X but isn't that part of my responsibility to move forward?
I plan on running mostly at 6k and dealing with the crop. I'm close to that with my Scarlet-x at 4k. And If
I need quick delivery I can shoot ProRes.
All seems like a huge winner to me!!

Curtis

 

[Abiodun Shote]

But he also uses multiple Ravens

Got a rental client who is so damn happy with RAVEN nothing I say can move him to even shoot WEAPON, he's just too in love with RAVEN images, though acknowledges the technical superiority but he just feels Raven is RED's best camera considering the price point!