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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Update Thread

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Eagerly awaiting more details on this financing plan! I was planning on taking out a loan for it but was afraid for how much I was going to get killed by interest!

Happy 400th page everyone!
 
Josh Becker said:
Sounds like two new cameras: Epic-W at $30k, Weapon Helium at $50k (I think?). Weapon Helium is the Stormtrooper specs, but black.

Epic-W does 8K at 30fps, 6K at 75fps, 6K WS at 100fps. It can record 4K ProRes proxies, not sure on flavors of ProRes yet.

Your Scarlet-W order can be upgraded on Oct 11th to give you a $20k price on the Epic-W. It sounds like your Weapon MG can be upgraded to the Weapon Helium for around $15k (this upgrade price reflects trading in your camera, unlike the Scarlet-W's discount)

I think you're in a pretty incredible position. Just make sure your Weapon MG is registered to you before Oct 10th (if you bought it from RED you should be good)

Basically, for like $35k you could potentially have both Helium cameras. Damn, dude!

edit: oh, and here is a link to Phil Holland's frame comparison tool if you're interested in visualizing the sensor sizes at various resolutions compared to Dragon.

http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/
Click to expand...


I checked out Phil's FOV "calculator" (brilliant BTW!! thank you Phil!!) and I have to say it makes me pause about the enthusiasm for 8K Helium. I have two Weapon CF and two Scarlet W's. I looked at the SW's as b-cams for jobs I want to shoot two cameras at 5K, but not commit to both being Weapons. Or use the SWs on lower end jobs that are fine with 5K originals. But if I upgrade just the SW's I am suddenly in two radically different FOV's at the same resolution (Weapon 5K dragon vs. EpicW Helium 5K) [Am I looking at this correctly?]

So it seems that I then need to go 8K for all four cameras for compatibility. But now I'm consuming more data across the board, and if I want to shoot 5k or god forbid 4K.... I'm not using anywhere near the full sensor and my FOV is sort of silly compared to what I would have if I kept the two cameras as is.

Essentially the FOV of an 8K Helium sensor is nearly identical to a 6K Dragon sensor. So it seems to push us into higher data rate post (with all the attendant issues) for the sake of higher resolution and better lowlight performance.

And while I love the idea of 8K resolution... I find myself longing for the 8K VV sensor... Because then, if I decide to go to 6K or 5K on that sensor to match my SW's, I'm still at same relative resolution and FOV (because the photo sites are the same size). Not to mention the ability to shoot anamorphic VV format.

But since I chickened out and canceled my 8K VV order from NAB, I have no idea if I could ever even order or get an 8K VV sensor. Seems they will scarcer than hen's teeth forever.

Is this simply the inevitable drum beat of resolution increase and 8K is the new standard going forward from Red?? So if I don't plunk down $40K or whatever on 10/11 I'm suddenly yesterday's news?

M
 
Mark Pedersen said:
I checked out Phil's FOV "calculator" (brilliant BTW!! thank you Phil!!) and I have to say it makes me pause about the enthusiasm for 8K Helium. I have two Weapon CF and two Scarlet W's. I looked at the SW's as b-cams for jobs I want to shoot two cameras at 5K, but not commit to both being Weapons. Or use the SWs on lower end jobs that are fine with 5K originals. But if I upgrade just the SW's I am suddenly in two radically different FOV's at the same resolution (Weapon 5K dragon vs. EpicW Helium 5K) [Am I looking at this correctly?]

So it seems that I then need to go 8K for all four cameras for compatibility. But now I'm consuming more data across the board, and if I want to shoot 5k or god forbid 4K.... I'm not using anywhere near the full sensor and my FOV is sort of silly compared to what I would have if I kept the two cameras as is.

Essentially the FOV of an 8K Helium sensor is nearly identical to a 6K Dragon sensor. So it seems to push us into higher data rate post (with all the attendant issues) for the sake of higher resolution and better lowlight performance.

And while I love the idea of 8K resolution... I find myself longing for the 8K VV sensor... Because then, if I decide to go to 6K or 5K on that sensor to match my SW's, I'm still at same relative resolution and FOV (because the photo sites are the same size). Not to mention the ability to shoot anamorphic VV format.

But since I chickened out and canceled my 8K VV order from NAB, I have no idea if I could ever even order or get an 8K VV sensor. Seems they will scarcer than hen's teeth forever.

Is this simply the inevitable drum beat of resolution increase and 8K is the new standard going forward from Red?? So if I don't plunk down $40K or whatever on 10/11 I'm suddenly yesterday's news?

M
Click to expand...

Remember that the Helium cameras can record to 4K ProRes from the 8K FOV. That's one of the saving graces for me, if I find myself in a position where I need to limit my resolution to 4K (for a client, post house, data, etc). I know it's not REDcode, but it's a nice function to have.

And you are correct that the FOV gets crazy as you crop into 5K and 4K on the Helium, that was my major hangup for a while, too. Another thing I'm going to test out, just because I'm curious to see what the results are, is to turn up the compression on 8K (like to 15:1) knowing that I'll be compressing it down to 4K. That way I can minimize the data rate but retain the RAW capability.
 
Jarred Land said:
You don't require them... but you sure can use the speed if you have them.

Epic-W has almost exactly double the max data rate capability that Scarlet-W has.
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Nice :) That means it will be 280MB/s, the current CF Weapon is 300MB/s. Where does that leave the new Weapon Helium. I am really curios for some "beans" on this :) Now Epic-W looks really really close in specs to the Weapon Helium.

Maybe 4K ProRes with no FPS limit :D? Higher FPS in 8K than what the Storm-troopers are capable now? Some kind of new firmware update that will make the Stromtroopers even better, and Weapon Helium also? 10K :D ?
 
4000th Post!!! WooHoo! I'm King of the World!!!
 

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Mark Pedersen said:
And while I love the idea of 8K resolution... I find myself longing for the 8K VV sensor... Because then, if I decide to go to 6K or 5K on that sensor to match my SW's, I'm still at same relative resolution and FOV (because the photo sites are the same size). Not to mention the ability to shoot anamorphic VV format.

But since I chickened out and canceled my 8K VV order from NAB, I have no idea if I could ever even order or get an 8K VV sensor. Seems they will scarcer than hen's teeth forever.
Click to expand...

Same here.

If Red could deliver a 8k VV sensor at a good pace, I would prefer to stay in Dragon and have the Vista format. Problem is supply and demands. I bet us, who couldn't order it at NAB 2015, will never have an 8k VV before 2018. I'm not sure I want to invest in a 20k$ sensor upgrade 2 years only before DSMC² form factor become "obsolete"...
 
Andrei Goaga said:
Nice :) That means it will be 280MB/s
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This strikes me as rather odd. Why make 280MB/s boards (or more likely 175MB/s) when they already have 300Mb/s and 225MB/s? If Epic-W is a sideways move from MG, then you'd assume the boards would also be 225MB/s, however that's a far cry from Jarred's "almost exactly double the max data rate capability that Scarlet-W".

Very curious. :)
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
This strikes me as rather odd. Why make 280MB/s boards (or more likely 175MB/s) when they already have 300Mb/s and 225MB/s? If Epic-W is a sideways move from MG, then you'd assume the boards would also be 225MB/s, however that's a far cry from Jarred's "almost exactly double the max data rate capability that Scarlet-W".

Very curious. :)
Click to expand...

Epic-W probably has more nuts than MG. It was never actually clear that it has the same power as MG. Only assumed.
 
Morning guys,
A quick question from a confused Brit here! Epic-W and Weapon Helium both have the same Helium 8K sensor in them, it's just the Epic doesn't have as much RAW power? Is that right? So I'm guessing that Epic-W will produce the same picture and shadow detail as a Helium, albeit with lower frame rates at the 8K end of things? We rarely go above 50fps so I'm thinking a Epic-W would work fine for us. Also in this mammoth encyclopaedia of information that this thread is, is it right that I've seen there will be an upgrade path in the future from Epic-W to Weapon Helium? I'm getting a bit confused!

When is the normal go-live for these things? Given the time zone differences between the west coast and the UK I'm hoping it's daytime over here!

I don't post all that much but have been reading along with laughter and interest! Just to add my contribution, I think RED truly are respectful of the community they created and long may it continue. To Jarrod, Brent and everyone at RED thank you for amazing products and opportunities.

Rich
 
Jarred Land said:
Financing isn't our business but we have partnered with some finance companies for the 11th that will make what your asking for very, very appealing.
Click to expand...

Is the drunk financing plan thing something that will be revealed before the 11th? I'm pretty sure it was said that this special financing is only offered to scarlet w users and would love at least a day or 2 to see if it's a smart business investment to switch to Scarlet W and take advantage of that route.

Thanks for offering either way.
 
Antony Newman said:
280 is 'almost exactly' 300.

AJ
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I never even considered that. If so, ugh, Epic-W is going to be hard to resist. :/

Brody_B said:
Epic-W probably has more nuts than MG. It was never actually clear that it has the same power as MG. Only assumed.
Click to expand...

Interesting. If so, then why would Jarred say that it's a sideways step to Epic-W from Weapon MG? If it has higher res and higher data rates, then it doesn't seem comparable at all.
 
Hey Guys I have read almost all of this 400+ page thread so please do forgive me if this has been covered. If I upgrade to a EpicW now will the option to then upgrade from the EpicW to Weapon Helium at some point in the future in a year or so or is this a one time deal.
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
I never even considered that. If so, ugh, Epic-W is going to be hard to resist. :/



Interesting. If so, then why would Jarred say that it's a sideways step to Epic-W from Weapon MG? If it has higher res and higher data rates, then it doesn't seem comparable at all.
Click to expand...

What makes you think it has higher data rates? Is that something Jarred / RED has confirmed? I thought W does 8k @ 30fps and at quite high compression / about twice what MG does 6k, so that would give the same data rate, since 8k is about twice the amount of pixels to 6k.

MG has a bigger sensor area. Possibly not wanted for everyone. But at higher frame rates the sensor sizes start to differ quite heavily. 3k helium or 2k helium is small in a way so you really start using the very center of your normal lens projection, which does affect sharpness a lot.

I´m not saying W is a bad thing, I don't know more about it then what I read form this thread and looked ad Helium tests.
But my assumptions made from that info does to me look like a side step option. Perfect for some occasions lenses etc but weapon MG trumps it in other situations.

So simply put, you don't just want a weapon or helium you want both... or actually as I see it I really would love to have a helium and a VV, if having a VV then there is no use for a dragon 6k as that is simply just a smaller slice of the same.
 
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