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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The SDI issues

Yes, above 6G is way more sensitive.

Most HD out camerras has 3G. Only latest iterations do 12G.

I think komodo gets troubled alot buy this due to the fact that many has different power source for their monitors. A lot of Dtap stuff. A lot of not so good power plates.


But yes, I used my vaxis atom and I been swaping power sources like crazy, not following the safty protocol at all. Even fried one Vaxis siting on the camera by giving it reversed polarity by mistake. Smoke was comming out of that vaxis. Still my komodo did not flinch. I also use D tap alot and pull them in out without any precautions, happens even when camera is on quite often. Still no problem.
What I have not used is monitors with seperate power source. I pretty much dont use any monitors at all, tend to go only wireless on the komodo.
 
Would using a Blackmagic SDI-HDMI Micro Converter help with this situation at all? Obviously this would need to be powered from one of the available V mount adapters, or it's own power bank, so maybe it wouldn't help anything... also extra bulk and cables, so not an awesome solution. :/
 
The necessary electronics for proper power circuits are, as it turns out, an expense for the manufacturer. Who knew? ;-)

There appears to be multiple issues at play:

1) Janky power on some lower cost accessories (also plastic casing instead of metal)
2) 12g over BNC/Coax is not as robust in terms of shielding and has tighter physical tolerances at the connectors
3) An accessory like a monitor that has it's own power source, perhaps a 5v battery, that shares the SDI ground facility, can support a ground loop

For some folks, Vance's pin modification (notes in his post above) could be a low cost way to avoid spikes when changing batteries. Without more information we can't be sure that's a bulletproof solution, but I love the ingenuity.

Galvanic isolators should offer solid protection for the SDI board, but there will always be at least some signal loss. With 12g, even a little attenuation could be enough for the signal to drop below the minimum threshold. Fortunately, a camera mounted monitor only needs a very short cable, so you shouldn't lose much signal there. Strongly recommend throwing down for a high spec cable with proper connectors, even if you don't plan to use the full 12g capacity.

It can be nice to power the monitor from its own battery, but there is circumstantial evidence (and some basic electrical properties) indicating that doing so can allow ground loops. The smart move would seem to be powering the camera and everything on it from a single power source. Does that completely protect the SDI board? Likely not, but it should reduce the number of failure points and offers a common ground.

Cheers - #19
 
Alex Lubensky said:
It's all the cameras out there with SDI.
I've seen fried SDI boards on Alexa Classic, Mini, LF etc just as often as on any other camera. BTW, the more cameras out there on rentals- the more fired SDI's you know.
Click to expand...

Not saying it isn’t an issue with all cameras, but it seems like we hear of it happening more with ARRI and RED, less with Sony. Again, “seems”.

I am not suggesting, if indeed the case that it less occurs with Sony cameras, that Sony cameras are more robust or better engineered. Just wondering if it more afflicts more “sophisticated” cameras. If it is even true that ARRI and RED cameras are necessarily more complex engineering than,say, the Sony FX9.

Anecdotally is seems to be mostly occurring, or even exclusively occurring, with higher-end “cinema” cameras.

The Sony FX9 has 12g sdi. Not yet heard of any issue with sdi-power sequence on the FX9.

I guess my bottom line here, selfishly, is how much I need to worry about this with my FX9.
 
John David Pope said:
Not saying it isn’t an issue with all cameras, but it seems like we hear of it happening more with ARRI and RED, less with Sony. Again, “seems”.

I am not suggesting, if indeed the case that it less occurs with Sony cameras, that Sony cameras are more robust or better engineered. Just wondering if it more afflicts more “sophisticated” cameras. If it is even true that ARRI and RED cameras are necessarily more complex engineering than,say, the Sony FX9.

Anecdotally is seems to be mostly occurring, or even exclusively occurring, with higher-end “cinema” cameras.

The Sony FX9 has 12g sdi. Not yet heard of any issue with sdi-power sequence on the FX9.

I guess my bottom line here, selfishly, is how much I need to worry about this with my FX9.
Click to expand...

Obviously it’s not a made-up issue and according to most authoritative sources, it can happen to any camera with an SDI port, regardless if it’s 1.5, 3, 6 or 12G. But I don’t recall ever seeing or even hearing about a camera with an SDI port getting fried in this manner, until Arri started talking about it last year. And I’ve been in the business for close to 25 years.

Maybe Sony and Panasonic, because of their knowledge, experience and expertise from decades of building ENG and live broadcast cameras and gear, that have to perform under the rigors of some of the most demanding and unforgiving environments and conditions, have the knowledge and wherewithal to do everything they can to harden(protect) these ports that can be so incredibly important and necessary, to where an entire shoot hinges on them working or not. And is also why most cameras like that also have more than one. My opinion, a camera should, at a bare-bones minimum, have two. I prefer a camera with three and really like four, like on my F55. Not necessarily just for back-ups, but it makes feeding all the numerous things that need a video signal in today’s production world, easier.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Red sent a mail.

https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/ar...640682846885034545031924444028519284029445683
Click to expand...

Yeah, linking to the information that's already known. There's no additions to the use of monitors with their own batteries and so on. Changing batteries on the monitor by shutting not only the monitor off, but the camera, then removing the SDI, then changing the monitor battery, then attaching the SDI, then turning the accessory on, then the camera... every damn time you need to change the monitor battery is never going to be a viable workflow option for a normal set, not to speak of the wear and tear this will produce.

The solution needs to be something else, something that makes us able to connect the SDI at the start of the day, and work normally with changing batteries on our gear fast and efficiently. That Red just links to a list of standard procedures is no help at all. Would have been better if they just designed a module that has a breaker inside or something. Locking the SDI port into the camera means that whenever it goes dead you need to send in your entire camera.

So I hope Red can offer some actual solutions to this instead of just doing the whole "support read from the book" answers.

Do the galvanic isolators work? Yes or no? Red should battle test it and let us know. If they made the camera so the SDI port isn't easily fixed, we need some assurance measures, otherwise, we will never be able to rent out or lend the camera to anyone without risking blowing our SDI board. It doesn't matter if we know how to operate the camera, we will never be able to safely let others use it without interviewing them on the procedures of SDI cable management. The possible problems and drawbacks just pile up as long as the only thing we have is a link to a general procedure list.
 
Christopher A. Bell said:
And is also why most cameras like that also have more than one. My opinion, a camera should, at a bare-bones minimum, have two. I prefer a camera with three and really like four, like on my F55.
Click to expand...

It should have none, it should be on a module that can be replaced. If the SDI is this sensitive to damage, it's not a viable option for the chaos of productions. The best thing Red could do is to do another type of baseplate module that has an SDI out.
Or recommend an isolator that works, or make them themselves. The worst thing about all of this is that the SDI port is the ONLY option for good monitoring with our Komodo. We don't have a dedicated monitor on top and using the Komodo Link is not even close to enough for critical view work. So if the SDI gets blown it's over. If there's one thing I know, it is that anything that can break on set needs to have a replacement option on set. Here we have no such thing, if it breaks, we're screwed.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
It should have none, it should be on a module that can be replaced. If the SDI is this sensitive to damage, it's not a viable option for the chaos of productions. The best thing Red could do is to do another type of baseplate module that has an SDI out.
Or recommend an isolator that works, or make them themselves. The worst thing about all of this is that the SDI port is the ONLY option for good monitoring with our Komodo. We don't have a dedicated monitor on top and using the Komodo Link is not even close to enough for critical view work. So if the SDI gets blown it's over. If there's one thing I know, it is that anything that can break on set needs to have a replacement option on set. Here we have no such thing, if it breaks, we're screwed.
Click to expand...


We work on a big series starting to shoot on two komodos now. Will be interesting to see how that flies. I tried to explain all this to the AC´s, camera ops and the DoP when they where gathering their gear, but they did not even want to listen, and looked at me as I was speaking about trolls...

But as I see it the easiest way around all this is to use something like the Bebop hotswap adapter and power everything from it. on board monitors etc. Then I´m quite positive that you can do what ever you want with the cables and camera without risking the camera. But the shit thing is... The problem does not need to be on the camera... If you got a client monitor hooked up on a 30m BNC cable and the video assist guy go of to put on a new brick... then yes he need to unplug that montor SDI before he do the battery swap. Which is something video assists will not learn any time soon.

http://bebob.de/en/ml-120v-v.html


My komodo has been out quite frequently and I had no issues. It could be the Vaxis atom that saves my ass. With a bit of luck Red forced Vaxis to put an isolator inside of the module to approve it so the SDI port is secured, or at least that is what they should have done, the Vaxis is built in away so when mounted vertical then you can not even get the SDI cable out of the camera or module.... And as I understand its´only 3G video coming out of in the vaxis SDI port. likely because its difficult to find a 12G isolator that works well and does not cost a fortune so I suspect that's the reason it only does lower G´s.


To me best you can do is, as described above, to drill out your Dtap´s female + pol. Just 3mm or such then someone really have to push that dtap in on an angle to manage to fry anything.
 
Björn Benckert said:
My komodo has been out quite frequently and I had no issues. It could be the Vaxis atom that saves my ass. With a bit of luck Red forced Vaxis to put an isolator inside of the module to approve it so the SDI port is secured, or at least that is what they should have done, the Vaxis is built in away so when mounted vertical then you can not even get the SDI cable out of the camera or module.... And as I understand its´only 3G video coming out of in the vaxis SDI port. likely because its difficult to find a 12G isolator that works well and does not cost a fortune so I suspect that's the reason it only does lower G´s.
Click to expand...

I've just spent 2 hours reading through every single post and trying to form my own opinions on this, with almost 0 knowledge of electronics and all of that. I got my Komodo back in December and was primarily shooting snowboarding - rough conditions, no time to follow procedures (also because this wasn't as well known of an issue). Fast forward to ~March and I start reading about all of this and it sits in the back of my head when it's time to go out and shoot, I'm almost afraid to use the camera. I have 2 shoots back to back, different AC's so I'm really trying to lock this down.

Here is my setup: Komodo powered by Core SWX plate + Core Nano V mounts, D tap out powering my Atomos Shinobi SDI/HDMI monitor (also have powered via separate battery), and a Nano FF powered via D tap or USB. I bought 1 SDI from B&H that claimed it was shielded 12G (although BH had no clue what this was) and another person I met on the Komodo Users FB Group sold me 2 cables that he had made himself (great price, great guy, and they've worked like a charm so far). Occasionally I have a wireless monitoring system running via the SDI out on the Shinobi to a focus puller or director's monitor.

What I'm wondering is if this little $400 monitor that clearly says 3G SDI on it has saved my ass throughout all of this. It seems that there is literally no consistency to what is happening to those with issues - monitor with d tap/lemo/separate battery, AC powering - nothing.

I have no need for external recording or a 4k monitor. Directors are happy to view in 1080 and I get 6k internal raw, why would I want anything else?

Can anyone tell me if this sounds like a relatively safe option? How have I been this lucky so far to not blow my SDI? My only guess is the 3g connection through the Shinobi and would love for someone with more knowledge here to confirm.


Thanks!

*also now that I've learned about this issue, I'm definitely doing what I can to mitigate the risk by following procedure*
 
The this statement in support ticket in my opinion is confusing:

"RED recommends only using high quality, shielded BNC cables that are rated for 12G-SDI signals and only using shielded power cables for connecting accessories via BNC cable."

Maybe should read:

RED recommends only using high quality, shielded BNC cables that are rated for 12G-SDI signals and only using shielded power cables for connecting accessories which require a BNC cable.

This needs to be published in the Komodo operation manual along with the connection and powering on and off sequences as a WARNING. Anything less such as leaving it up to a REDUSER to post a copy of a support ticket on a blog for only a few to read does not truely support Komodo users and can only hurt Red's reputation with SDI board faiures on sets and locations caused by those who are unaware of this issue.

Better would be for Red to email an "Alert Bullitin" to all Komodo owners via email of the issue and proper proceedures to minimize chances of SDI board failure.
 
Michael Henaghan said:
I've just spent 2 hours reading through every single post and trying to form my own opinions on this, with almost 0 knowledge of electronics and all of that. I got my Komodo back in December and was primarily shooting snowboarding - rough conditions, no time to follow procedures (also because this wasn't as well known of an issue). Fast forward to ~March and I start reading about all of this and it sits in the back of my head when it's time to go out and shoot, I'm almost afraid to use the camera. I have 2 shoots back to back, different AC's so I'm really trying to lock this down.

Here is my setup: Komodo powered by Core SWX plate + Core Nano V mounts, D tap out powering my Atomos Shinobi SDI/HDMI monitor (also have powered via separate battery), and a Nano FF powered via D tap or USB. I bought 1 SDI from B&H that claimed it was shielded 12G (although BH had no clue what this was) and another person I met on the Komodo Users FB Group sold me 2 cables that he had made himself (great price, great guy, and they've worked like a charm so far). Occasionally I have a wireless monitoring system running via the SDI out on the Shinobi to a focus puller or director's monitor.

What I'm wondering is if this little $400 monitor that clearly says 3G SDI on it has saved my ass throughout all of this. It seems that there is literally no consistency to what is happening to those with issues - monitor with d tap/lemo/separate battery, AC powering - nothing.

I have no need for external recording or a 4k monitor. Directors are happy to view in 1080 and I get 6k internal raw, why would I want anything else?

Can anyone tell me if this sounds like a relatively safe option? How have I been this lucky so far to not blow my SDI? My only guess is the 3g connection through the Shinobi and would love for someone with more knowledge here to confirm.


Thanks!

*also now that I've learned about this issue, I'm definitely doing what I can to mitigate the risk by following procedure*
Click to expand...

I think basically you just been lucky.

Basically to stay out of trouble you would need to pull out the SDI cable when swaping power on your Shinobi or camera.

Dtaps are fine if they are plugged in correctly before power is applied. That is valid for all ends female as well as male connectors. One way to cheat Dtap is to make sure they can not be connected + pol first. Basically drill out the first millimeters of your + female connector tubes...

Lemos are more difficult to get unlucky with as the shield of them connects before the studs. So not so worried about them.

The Shielded SDI cables, sure good if they are sheilded but thats no guarantie for anything you can still get a power to run in the lead and then it fries the SDI prot anyway.

Possibly there is some kind of protection in the Shinobi. But nothing I would take for granted.

Personally I think it´s great that komodo has UHD out, thats the future for sure even on set. But yes, I would rather stick with HD then having the camera go sour.
 
Vance Colvig said:
The this statement in support ticket in my opinion is confusing:

"RED recommends only using high quality, shielded BNC cables that are rated for 12G-SDI signals and only using shielded power cables for connecting accessories via BNC cable."

Maybe should read:

RED recommends only using high quality, shielded BNC cables that are rated for 12G-SDI signals and only using shielded power cables for connecting accessories which require a BNC cable.

This needs to be published in the Komodo operation manual along with the connection and powering on and off sequences as a WARNING. Anything less such as leaving it up to a REDUSER to post a copy of a support ticket on a blog for only a few to read does not truely support Komodo users and can only hurt Red's reputation with SDI board faiures on sets and locations caused by those who are unaware of this issue.

Better would be for Red to email an "Alert Bullitin" to all Komodo owners via email of the issue and proper proceedures to minimize chances of SDI board failure.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I saw another guy on the Red Komodo Users FB yesterday with a blown SDI. He had no idea about the issue or the order of operation.
 
Michael Henaghan said:
I've just spent 2 hours reading through every single post and trying to form my own opinions on this, with almost 0 knowledge of electronics and all of that. I got my Komodo back in December and was primarily shooting snowboarding - rough conditions, no time to follow procedures (also because this wasn't as well known of an issue). Fast forward to ~March and I start reading about all of this and it sits in the back of my head when it's time to go out and shoot, I'm almost afraid to use the camera. I have 2 shoots back to back, different AC's so I'm really trying to lock this down.

Here is my setup: Komodo powered by Core SWX plate + Core Nano V mounts, D tap out powering my Atomos Shinobi SDI/HDMI monitor (also have powered via separate battery), and a Nano FF powered via D tap or USB. I bought 1 SDI from B&H that claimed it was shielded 12G (although BH had no clue what this was) and another person I met on the Komodo Users FB Group sold me 2 cables that he had made himself (great price, great guy, and they've worked like a charm so far). Occasionally I have a wireless monitoring system running via the SDI out on the Shinobi to a focus puller or director's monitor.

What I'm wondering is if this little $400 monitor that clearly says 3G SDI on it has saved my ass throughout all of this. It seems that there is literally no consistency to what is happening to those with issues - monitor with d tap/lemo/separate battery, AC powering - nothing.

I have no need for external recording or a 4k monitor. Directors are happy to view in 1080 and I get 6k internal raw, why would I want anything else?

Can anyone tell me if this sounds like a relatively safe option? How have I been this lucky so far to not blow my SDI? My only guess is the 3g connection through the Shinobi and would love for someone with more knowledge here to confirm.


Thanks!

*also now that I've learned about this issue, I'm definitely doing what I can to mitigate the risk by following procedure*
Click to expand...

It's confusing, isn't it? And even when you do get a response from someone online saying do this or that, how do you know if they really know what they are talking about? That's why Red needs to clear this up.

FWIW, the d-tap to monitor connection you have could cause the ground loop issue if you plug it in when the SDI cable is connected. Shorten the positive pin (see earlier in this thread) or always plug in the monitor's power cable before the SDI cable. I don't believe changing batteries while the SDI cable is connected will cause an issue, but others seem to think it will.
 
Robert Hofmeyr said:
Agreed. I saw another guy on the Red Komodo Users FB yesterday with a blown SDI. He had no idea about the issue or the order of operation.
Click to expand...

A shit storm no doubt.

They need to come up with a 12G Video isolation transformer very quick. I think this works but then you are on 12G: https://www.allenavionics.com/product-details/hd-vit-75


Possibly this issue is part reason why the add to cart is not available on the red webpage. Seams like a remake of the video board would be in place so they dont have to do a total recall.
 
Björn Benckert said:
A shit storm no doubt.

They need to come up with a 12G Video isolation transformer very quick. I think this works but then you are on 12G: https://www.allenavionics.com/product-details/hd-vit-75


Possibly this issue is part reason why the add to cart is not available on the red webpage. Seams like a remake of the video board would be in place so they dont have to do a total recall.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I ordered one of those isolators but they are backordered at B&H, estimated arrival 2-4 weeks. If anyone knows where they are in stock, please let me know.
 
I also find it extremely ironic that this camera was marketed as "crash cam" but it can't even withstand an AC putting it together
 
Mitigation...

Mitigation...

FWIW, Jarred has never been a fan of P-tap for on camera power distro. No way to know what percentage of issues noted in this thread are directly tied to the inherent limitations of an unshielded connector that will presumably hit the positive + pol before the negative - pol 50% of the time. That said, metal shielded 2 pin Lemo (or ODU) seems like a smart way to reduce risk and is a more secure connection mechanically. If you're interested in going all 2 pin, the splitter noted below might be useful:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1600677-REG/camvate_c2566_1_to_3_power.html/?ap=y

IAC, beyond the P-tap limitations and 12g SDI issues, I'd love to know what happens at the moment a V-mount battery is mounted or dismounted. Is this another opportunity for the positive pol to strike first? Do some plates have isolators or other electronics built in that prevent spikes from going anywhere? Are some low cost plates made without protection?

Not sure what the cost, or impact on reliability might be, but why not a relay in the plate that doesn't close until both positive and negative are available? If I'm totally off base, I'd be happy to get schooled up on the subject.

Cheers - #19
 
Robert Hofmeyr said:
It's confusing, isn't it? And even when you do get a response from someone online saying do this or that, how do you know if they really know what they are talking about? That's why Red needs to clear this up.

FWIW, the d-tap to monitor connection you have could cause the ground loop issue if you plug it in when the SDI cable is connected. Shorten the positive pin (see earlier in this thread) or always plug in the monitor's power cable before the SDI cable. I don't believe changing batteries while the SDI cable is connected will cause an issue, but others seem to think it will.
Click to expand...

Its quite simple, for sure changing battery is just as bad as plugging in a Dtap. look at the pins on a V mount battery. + and - are just as long the chance that you connect it + first is very much 50% then the current will try to find the easiest way to ground, if that is your SDI cable then your I/O might go bye bye.
 
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