Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Scarlet Path That Jarred Mentioned...

Status
Not open for further replies.
I hope they either make it an 8K stills capable camera (w/ no 8k motion) or transform her into their Hi FPS/ Low REDCODE RAW Compression Beast considering Raven does 120fps @ 4K. Scarlet Flex 5K anyone?
 
The conventional/obvious evolution for SCARLET DRAGON is to marry the SCARLET DRAGON sensor with RAVEN electronics and a WEAPON AL body. This would offer 2x the data rate of current SCARLET DRAGON (140MB/sec vs. 72MB/sec), opening up 6K motion (at REDCODE 6:1?) and low-compression 5K motion (at REDCODE 4:1?). The WEAPON AL body would offer interchangeable lens mounts and OLPFs, making the camera more of a low-end WEAPON than a high-end RAVEN.

If RED offers the same trade-in credits for SCARLET DRAGON -> SCARLET WEAPON that they did at NAB last year, and if they can price the initial camera aggressively (so that the upgrade is a no-brainer), I expect every SCARLET DRAGON owner would want to throw down for the upgrade. I know I would!

RED always surprises us, so perhaps they can come up with something better than the "obvious" choice. I look forward to seeing what upside they can add to the above.
 
But where would that leave magnesium weapon - seems like it would be too close to weapon scarlet
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
But where would that leave magnesium weapon - seems like it would be too close to weapon scarlet
Click to expand...

Mg Weapon has 225 MB/sec bandwidth, which is a 60% improvement. Whether that 60% manifests in terms of frame rate, compression, or both, I imagine there are plenty of folks who want *more* than EPIC, not less, and Mg is for them.

In addition, there may be other features that distinguish WEAPON from RAVEN in terms of ProRes, LUT, etc. RED is not going to thrive by throttling the intrinsic capabilities of their systems. Nor are they going to thrive by relying on wishful thinking (such as "Oh, you can just cut an 8K sensor into 4 pieces and lower the cost of 4K that way" or "an interchangeable mount should cost no more than a fixed mount because...I think it should."). But RAVEN proves what they can do on the compute engine side. SCARLET DRAGON already has a 6K DRAGON sensor at a known cost. SCARLET DRAGON proves what an interchangeable lens mount and OLPF can cost. So you add all these existing known pieces together, which price out at the SCARLET level, bake, and there you have it.
 
I imagine Scarlet Weapon will be tempting to a lot of Scarlet Dragon owners just for the new body/form-factor and extra Weapon features alone, especially if there was some sort of trade-in deal to keep the price down. But seeing as RED have to use some (or all) newly re-designed boards to fit the new Weapon-style body anyway, and can therefore give a performance boost as well, it could easily get into no-brainer territory to upgrade. And if you accept that the higher-performing 'Epic' Weapon internals are in fact more expensive to design and manufacture than the lower-performing Scarlet Weapon boards would be, it could make the Scarlet Dragon to Scarlet Weapon upgrade cheaper than the higher level Weapon upgrades we've seen so far.

The obvious question is, what would the new performance increase go towards? Resolution, frame-rates, or compression, or some combination of these?

Giving the Scarlet Weapon 6K/24fps/RC8:1 would be disruptive.

But even if RED maintain the Scarlet/Epic resolution/fps difference they've had in the past, which would mean the Scarlet Weapon stays at 6K 12fps, the RedCode compression could go from a minimum of RC6:1 down to RC3:1 (or maybe even RC2:1). It could also mean 5K 24fps goes from a minimum of RC8:1 down to RC4:1 (or maybe even RC3:1). Going to practically visually lossless compression like that could be a significant upgrade for some.

Similarly, you'd expect better compression and/or higher frame-rates at 5K and lower. 5K on the Scarlet Dragon currently maxes out at 48fps/RC16:1, easy to imagine something improving there.

Something else to consider with any upgrade to the Weapon form factor is the path it leaves open to future sensor upgrades, similar to how the Scarlet/Epic MX's were sold as having a path to the as then yet to be defined Dragon sensor. Thinking along those lines, there's something to be said for sacrificing more expensive short-term performance gains in favour of keeping the upgrade cost as low as possible. Theoretically, Scarlet Weapon can stay noticeably lower specced than the other Weapons and still be a worthwhile upgrade.
 
What would be great is 5.5k on the new scarlet. Raven 4.5k vs Scarlet 5k difference is too small. And 5.5k is 28,16mm wide sensor, so the same as alexa open gate (28,17mm). 5.5K @24p 5:1 is 124MB/s, Raven could do that, I'm sure scarlet can.
Epic and weapon mg keep the 6k with crazy slowmo and compression.
And Jarred said it will be a disruptive badass camera. Just boosting 5k compression and slowmo is what everybody is expecting as a normal upgrade. It's not fitting Jarred's excitement and choice of words.
 
Last edited:
I think the Scarlet-successor will be the 6k-Dragon sensor combined with electronics as powerful as RAVEN (maybe even the same board?). All that put into a WEAPON AL-housing with interchangeable lens-mount and OLPF. That's the spot between RAVEN and WEAPON MG. Maybe a little more transfer-rate? Possible, but probably not. Maybe not really needed. Think about what Scarlet/D could do with the 140MB/s of RAVEN.

The biggest questions are about max resolution and fps. We could do the math here, hehe, no please don't. It's just one piece of the puzzle. But yes, 6k motion at standard speed? Thinkable. I don't bet on it, but would love to see it happen. Maybe maximum res will be 5.5kWS or 6kWS (a bit like 4.5kWS on RAVEN)?

Whatever, more fps on 5k and below plus better compression are a pretty safe bet.
 
I agree it would be good, and was wondering about the possibility of 5.5K myself, in light of the Raven increase to 4.5K. Am also thinking though that a 'normal' level of upgrade, but at a less than historically normal price, could also be considered disruptive.

In regards to the Raven comparisons, as much as I love what that camera is and can do, I personally prefer the Scarlet Dragon overall, so I'm not concerned about the Raven getting too close to it or even surpassing it in some areas. Which also means, for me, the Scarlet Weapon wouldn't have to be hugely different to the Raven in every area of performance to still be a decent upgrade from the Scarlet Dragon.
 
Les Hillis said:
I agree it would be good, and was wondering about the possibility of 5.5K myself, in light of the Raven increase to 4.5K. Am also thinking though that a 'normal' level of upgrade, but at a less than historically normal price, could also be considered disruptive.
Click to expand...

The Raven is 6000$. If it's disruptive because of the price, and keeps 5k max, maybe it will be around 12000$ or less. 0,5k difference, OLPFS and mounts, I don't see that being a 10000$ or more difference with Raven (and upgrades will probably keep the sensor).
I can't imagine the reaction of Epic Dragon or Weapon MG owners then.
5k with epic dragon specs for less than 12000$ would annihilate the epic dragon and the weapon mg markets. Who would hesitate to buy it over the 2 big brothers? Just a few people who will probably prefer to go directly to 8K.
That's why I favor 5.5K. Keeping the scarlet dragon price which is a lot higher than Raven for 1K resolution more, swappable mount and OLPF, and lower than epic D and weapon MG which has crazy 6K compression and slowmo. Anyway the epic dragon will disappear soon (Red probably wants to weaponize everybody), I bet the weapon MG will be discontinued too in a near future. Then there will be Raven 4.5K, Weapon Scarlet 5.5K, and Weapon 8K.
And @5.5K I'm sure Red will have a lot of clients. The scarlet owners, and all the epic dragon owners who would maybe not go from 6K to 5K but also think that the Weapon upgrade is too expensive, 5.5k could change their mind easily. @5K scarlet owners will be interested, but most epic owners would keep their epic.
 
Last edited:
Sam, I have no idea where you get the $12,000 number from. SCARLET DRAGON brain-only sells for $14,500. Nothing about putting RAVEN electronics into a WEAPON body with DRAGON sensor says that's going to be cheaper than SCARLET ELECTRONICS in an EPIC body with DRAGON sensor. But I do expect that WEAPON AL and EPIC-X could have similar cost profiles, and RAVEN electronics really shouldn't me more expensive than SCARLET electronics (the 2x increase is predicted by Moore's law). And DRAGON = DRAGON. So I would expect the price to be $14,500 or thereabouts. And it's going to cost $$$$ to get base/IO expanders, so it won't be super-cheap when all is said and done, but it will be damn sure less than WEAPON MG, by a long shot.
 
Michael Tiemann said:
Sam, I have no idea where you get the $12,000 number from. SCARLET DRAGON brain-only sells for $14,500. Nothing about putting RAVEN electronics into a WEAPON body with DRAGON sensor says that's going to be cheaper than SCARLET ELECTRONICS in an EPIC body with DRAGON sensor. But I do expect that WEAPON AL and EPIC-X could have similar cost profiles, and RAVEN electronics really shouldn't me more expensive than SCARLET electronics (the 2x increase is predicted by Moore's law). And DRAGON = DRAGON. So I would expect the price to be $14,500 or thereabouts. And it's going to cost $$$$ to get base/IO expanders, so it won't be super-cheap when all is said and done, but it will be damn sure less than WEAPON MG, by a long shot.
Click to expand...
Les was saying that maybe it will not be technically disruptive (keeping 5K max) but will have a disruptive price. I was extrapolating with a 12000$ price. Of course I don't know the costs to build this new camera. But the epic dragon, within the data rate Raven is capable of, can do 6K @24fps, and the same 5K with the same compression at all speeds. So it seems the power is there, you have to add a bigger sensor, swappable mount and OLPF to the Raven. So maybe they can make the price really disruptive. I personally think they will keep the price and go up to 5.5K which uses the same sensor size as Alexa Open Gate, which would be a symbol. The data rate of the Raven is enough for 5.5K @24p 5:1. The technology is already there, it seems there is no need to have more power than the Raven regarding Data Rate. Of course there is probably extra costs on some other levels. But the Raven Weapon body and strong power inside for only 6000$ changed the game for Red and the price of their whole lineup.
 
Last edited:
Give me a Scarlet Weapon that shoots 240fps @5k with no 6K. This cam needs something that makes it stand on its own. Maybe I'm reading too much into the image Jarred posted of the Duck with a rapid fire weapon blasting through a clip, but he has gone silent since. I think it was a clue as that man's moves is very calculated.
 
Last edited:
Abe Espinoza said:
Give me a Scarlet Weapon that shoots 240fps @5k with no 6K. This cam needs something that makes it stand on its own.
Click to expand...

To do that particular thing you would need a new sensor design/implementation and you'd be looking at over 2X the data rates of Weapon.
 
Abe Espinoza said:
Give me a Scarlet Weapon that shoots 240fps @5k with no 6K. This cam needs something that makes it stand on its own. Maybe I'm reading too much into the image Jarred posted of the Duck with a rapid fire weapon, but he has gone silent since. I think it was a clue as that man's moves is very calculated.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. I made a comment, saying that I sometimes had the feeling that the scarlet was the ugly duckling of the brand. Jarred said he likes ugly ducklings and illustrate it with the duck. I don't think you should see any clue there.
 
Soooo do you guys think we are getting a new scarlet body or will it be just a firmware upgrade?
I think if they cracked open 6k @ 24fps @ say 9:1 and 5K@ 100fps @ 7:1 and 4k@ 140fps on the current scarlet Dragon that would shut
a lot of people like ME up. Then there would in my opinion be enough of a gap between the raven and Scarlet Dragon. Right now though
there are loads of people that feel had they known the Raven was coming they prolly would not have purchased a SD or even did a S-MX to
SD upgrade.
Least we for get also one of the reasons the Raven does such high frame rates/low compression is because it's "ONLY" a 9mp sensor
still a dragon sensor BUT ONLY 9MP.
 
Leroy Jackson said:
Soooo do you guys think we are getting a new scarlet body or will it be just a firmware upgrade?
I think if they cracked open 6k @ 24fps @ say 9:1 and 5K@ 100fps @ 7:1 and 4k@ 140fps on the current scarlet Dragon that would shut
a lot of people like ME up. Then there would in my opinion be enough of a gap between the raven and Scarlet Dragon. Right now though
there are loads of people that feel had they known the Raven was coming they prolly would not have purchased a SD or even did a S-MX to
SD upgrade.
Least we for get also one of the reasons the Raven does such high frame rates/low compression is because it's "ONLY" a 9mp sensor
still a dragon sensor BUT ONLY 9MP.
Click to expand...

Anything you see in the future will be in the DSMC2 body style. I don't see any more physical upgrades to the old body style being offered.
 
Leroy Jackson said:
Soooo do you guys think we are getting a new scarlet body or will it be just a firmware upgrade?
I think if they cracked open 6k @ 24fps @ say 9:1 and 5K@ 100fps @ 7:1 and 4k@ 140fps on the current scarlet Dragon that would shut
a lot of people like ME up. Then there would in my opinion be enough of a gap between the raven and Scarlet Dragon. Right now though
there are loads of people that feel had they known the Raven was coming they prolly would not have purchased a SD or even did a S-MX to
SD upgrade.
Least we for get also one of the reasons the Raven does such high frame rates/low compression is because it's "ONLY" a 9mp sensor
still a dragon sensor BUT ONLY 9MP.
Click to expand...

Leroy,

It is well known that e,siting SCARLET DRAGON tops out at 72MB/sec. Wishing for more isn't going to change yhat. The calculator at http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time confirms that though 5k at 8:1 is "easy" at 64 MB/sec, 7:1 trips the limit at 73MB/sec. I have no idea whether there are other reasons 6K does not or cannot work on SCARLET DRAGON, but if it were just bandwidth alone, 10:1 would be the 72 MB/sec limit, not 9:1.
 
Last edited:
Michael Tiemann said:
Leroy,

It is well known that e,siting SCARLET DRAGON tops out at 72MB/sec. Wishing for more isn't going to change yhat. The calculator at http://www.red.com/tools/recording-time confirms that though 5k at 8:1 is "easy" at 6r MB/sec, 7:1 trips the limit at 73MB/sec. I have no idea whether there are other reasons 6K does not or cannot work on SCARLET DRAGON, but if it were just bandwidth alone, 10:1 would be the 72 MB/sec limit, not 9:1.
Click to expand...

I sure do hope RED will take their time on another Scarlet upgrade/trade in offer (if that's the idea?) as Raven just sounds a whole lot more tempting down the line if I'm going to have to spend more to buy more new accessories, cards, card readers, lens adapters etc. Perhaps they'll give us Scarlet owners several options toward that end as they did with the Epic MX vs Scarlet Dragon upgrade?

This might make me feel a little better as I think Scarlet #00123 is probably close to about as good as it's ever going to be and can do some awesome 5K A camera work for me. I would add that I have not installed the bottom Dragon fan and may be the better for it on noise. All software improvements are appreciated greatly!
 
If I stick with Red as my main owner camera (i hire others for specific jobs that either require fast handover 1080p, pro res and clean in lower/ambient light and faster frame rates... raven takes care of framerates 1080p and pro res)... I'll be looking at either getting a Raven pending grading footage and reading reviews... both from Red fans and more agnostic shooters... but I wont pull the pin until i know what the dsmc2 "scarlet" will be... i want to turn my scarlet mx into a bcam but at the moment that push is purely from me, not clients and doesnt make sense. So I bought kinos and getting some lenses... next year maybe time for upgrade
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top