The PAL problem

[Christoffer Glans]

So I'm all fine with 40 fps max at 6K, there has to be a limit somewhere. But it seems there's a very lacking part of the camera where 5K does not reach 50 fps.
48 fps is perfectly fine in NTSC land, but in PAL regions, this creates a ton of problems.

Getting a nice supersampled 5K to 4K slomo shot with EU sockets on the lights will create flicker. So we need to lower our acquisition resolution quality in order to be able to get those shots, just because we are missing only 2 frames per second in 5K mode.

Can this be resolved in a firmware update? Is there any way this can be solved before the official versions of the camera are released? I am aware that these things can be harder than just "flipping a switch", but is it a hardware limit to the sensor, or processor power? Can it be resolved with a quality change to compression?

At the current specs and months of discussions about them, I think most things have been perfectly balanced for the camera at its price range. It is a disruptive camera in the way I believe is good for Red and filmmakers. But these 2 frames missing is a bit of a miss towards PAL regions of the world. We get a downgrade to what's possible with the camera, as well as all the productions that go to PAL regions to shoot.

Is this resolvable? Or is there no way to fix this?

 

[William Long]

+1

Yes I agree, those two extra frames would make a considerable difference in a lot of other countries.

 

[Giles Harvey]

+2 bit of deal breaker really

 

[Daniel Pearson]

+3, also can be an issue in Australia.

 

[yann LHENORET]

+4
Give us two more frames, please!

 

[Peter Choi]

+5. As an American i'm used to NTSC but living in Singapore...

 

[Greg M]

are you still delivering analog content?
NTSC and PAL are no longer relevant...but regardless I cant imagine RED is holding back 2 frames, its got to be a limitation of the hardware.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

are you still delivering analog content?
NTSC and PAL are no longer relevant...but regardless I cant imagine RED is holding back 2 frames, its got to be a limitation of the hardware.

The issue is about lighting and traditionally PAL regions running on 50hz. 48fps can introduce flicker in sources like LED displays and some lighting that 50p can avoid.

 

[Peter Choi]

Its more an issue w/ the lights (both indoor and outdoor) and the flicker caused by 50hz vs NTSC regions @ 60hz (from what i understand). Major nightmare to edit.

edit: sorry see daniel already wrote the same thing ahead of me...

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Can you not use a 172.8 degree shutter angle to get rid of 50Hz flicker at 48fps? Not ideal perhaps, but it should be a reliable workaround.

 

[Alex Lubensky]

Can you not use a 172.8 degree shutter angle to get rid of 50Hz flicker at 48fps? Not ideal perhaps, but it should be a reliable workaround.

Yep, 172 degree shutter solves it all. There’s a list of flicker free shutters at any given speed in a lot of apps, including the red own one.

But it still piss me off at 3k ff on my Scarlet mx. Sometimes you just want your project to be 50fps

 

[paulcurtis]

I kinda agree with this (being 50hz myself) but doesn't running lights off vlocks also sort this?

cheers
Paul

 

[Kim Allen-Mersh]

The 2 extra frames are pretty crucial for us in EU. Please RED

 

[William Long]

It's true you can always find 'work-arounds' - and we do - but the point here is that it shouldn't be necessary on something so fundamental.

 

[Susan Lumsdon]

Yes please 50p for Australia too

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Yep, 172 dog shutter solves it all. There’s a list of flicker free shutters at any given speed in a lot of apps, including the red own one.

But it still piss me off at 3k ff on my Scarlet mx. Sometimes you just want your project to be 50fps

Yup, totally get that. Def makes the camera less useful in 50Hz land. Just wanted to make sure people knew that if mains flicker is their problem, then there is an easy solution.

 

[Ruff]

Agreed.

But this limitation was bought up with Red and the original Scarlet camera back in the day. It was never addressed then either...

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Agreed.

But this limitation was bought up with Red and the original Scarlet camera back in the day. It was never addressed then either...

Feels like PAL is never even thought of when the development of cameras take place. The same goes for Canon and their 30 fps limit in some DSLRs but for specifically video cameras I really don't get it.
If designing a new sensor means locking the capabilities of that sensor into specific framerates, why is 50 fps not part of the equation?

Komodo with 6K @ 40 fps, 5K @ 50 fps and 4K @ 60 fps would make for a much more balanced and better camera worldwide. I cannot wrap my head around why there's a limit at 48 fps?

I really wish there was some kind of tweak that would get 5K to 50 fps. If someone at Red is reading this, if there's any voltage tweak to the sensor or processing, it's well worth it.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Feels like PAL is never even thought of when the development of cameras take place. The same goes for Canon and their 30 fps limit in some DSLRs but for specifically video cameras I really don't get it.
If designing a new sensor means locking the capabilities of that sensor into specific framerates, why is 50 fps not part of the equation?

Komodo with 6K @ 40 fps, 5K @ 50 fps and 4K @ 60 fps would make for a much more balanced and better camera worldwide. I cannot wrap my head around why there's a limit at 48 fps?

I really wish there was some kind of tweak that would get 5K to 50 fps. If someone at Red is reading this, if there's any voltage tweak to the sensor or processing, it's well worth it.

Well, I hear you (coming from a "pal country") but you have to take into account that RED is making CINEMA cameras. You can use them for anything you want BUT they are tailored for cinema/fiction/commercials and in those industry you either shoot for screenings in theater (24fps or 48fps if HFR cinema is still a thing) or for HD/UHD TV (23.976 or 29.967 fps in NTSC countries and 25fps in PAL regions). Plus, with the change from DWT to DCT compression on Redcode because of how small the camera is I'm pretty sure if they could have done 50fps at 6K, they would have but it's a technical limitation (and again, since the camera is made primarly for use on features and TV series that's ok).

Maybe in the future they can put the 5K@50fps via firmware update but for the moment you would have to settle for 50fps at a m4/3-ish crop at 4K on Komodo.

 

[Alex Lubensky]

I'm pretty certain it's a marketing limitation, not hardware related one.

From the day 1 Red introduced Scarlet - it's a "Canon" marketing strategy - cripple the camera in a way it can not compete with another one, still giving basic performance. Scarlet MX only differs by the amount of RAM chips on board - on EPIC the amount is twice as much. That's it, no lacking performance sensors, nothing in real. Same camera, and have always been. The trick with Scarlet W > Dragon X only proves it, same sensor with hardware limitation built in on purpose.