The Helium Confusion..or Frustration...

[rohan banerjee]

Before you start hating me or start attacking me, i would just like to inform you that i am not stating anything or accusing anyone of anything,i am a big supporter of red digital cinema and fully appreciate everything they have done for the improvement and upliftment of digital cinematography,i am just a confused guy and a bit frustrated because of my confusion, i just want help from the people of this forum to get rid of my confusions.... with that out of the way lets begin....

Well i will just get straight to the point, what exactly is the point of The Helium 8k sensor? As in in what ways is it an improvement over the dragon sensor?? The dragon sensor was a huge improvement over the previous mx sensor, about 2 to 2.5 stops of dynamic range, better latitude, better sensitivity, better color range and depth and vibrancy, better highlight rolloff and of course last but not the least more resolution. So, now coming back to my question, what exactly does the helium sensor offer over dragon except resolution??? When helium was first announced i expected the sensor to be a similar leap of technology as the dragon was over mx, but, i am a bit confused as i can't really see anything out of the sensor that screams better than dragon. Has the helium got more dynamic range than dragon?? Probably no?? probably less?? even the website states the same 16 stps. Has it got more latitude,better highlight rolloff?? has it got more sensitivity?? i know the noise is less because of downscaling,but does it see more into darkness, like i have seen alexa is a bit noisy but also sees more into lowlight.
so again coming back to my question what was the point of bringing this new sensor, how and in what ways is it an improvement over dragon apart from just resolution... i personally would like to request something from red today, i know soon you guys are gonna come out with a new sensor in the near future,maybe a year or maybe 2 years down the line,i want you guys to stay at 8k for the next sensor, i don't think anyone wants a 10k sensor right now, i would love love you guys if for the next sensor you guys give more importance to the other areas of image quality than resolution, keep it 8k and improve the dynamic range , better latitude, better highlight rolloff and better colors than what we have right now with dragon or helium....

With helium(this is my personal opinion though and i could be wrong, trust me i would love to be proven wrong)i feel like its is a similar sensor to dragon with just smaller pixels and thus more pixel density....
Now this is just an opinion, and i would like to hear from you guys and your opinions over this subject, and please don't attack me with stupidity and reply to me only if you are interrested in having a logical, rational, valid discussion backed by evidence, i dont want to hear stuff like"alexa fanboy" or "go shoot on an alexa if you are unhappy" or "if you think helium is not good then don't upgrade, no one is forcing you to upgrade ,just stick to dragon and be happy". I have nothing against red digital cinema and i am thorough red supporter and i just want to know..... logical replies will be appreciated....

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Each sensor has it's strengths and weaknesses. Love the Dragon highlight rolloff and overall performance when given enough light. Helium has a lower noise floor and, IMO, truer scene referred color.

Not sure how you are "developing" your RAW R3Ds into RGB imagery, but if you are using the Dragon biased color and gamma (i.e. DC2, DG4) settings that might explain why you aren't seeing some of the color precision of the Helium footy. Running footage of the same scene from both sensors through IPP2 might be worth your time to pixel peep.

I think it's also worth noting that in 2017 the performance of digital cinema cameras based on Bayer mask sensors has gotten close to the theoretical limit. These days I think less about better/worse and more about what "flavor" is best for a particular project. My expectation is that the next significant jump in performance will come from a different sensor tech. AFAIK, Sony is working on layered designs and researchers at various companies/institutes are working on photo sites that measure both intensity and wavelength individually.

RED has a history of aggressively pursing new technologies, it should be fun to see what they roll out over the next decade.

Cheers - #19

 

[Phil Holland]

No need for rather large "fear" of being bashed. This is a question I get asked several times a week.

I've been fortunate to work with both Dragon and Helium 8K sensors for a long while now. The somewhat aesthetic based answer I can provide before diving into technical stuff is first think of a film stock. Let's say Kodak Vision 3. It does not reproduce "true to life" colors. It's got it's on flavor and color characteristics. I've found that generally Dragon has a similar concept to that and I would say Helium in some cases renders color "more true to life". It's a subtle color rendition thing and revealing the minor colorimetry differences in the two sensor technologies. Though you can match them rather easily when it comes down to it.

So the first note is, yep, subtle differences in color rendering/capture. However, because they are so very close in how they are mapped and calibrated that is why many see similarities between the two and honestly that's "okay".

Anyways.

To get this out of the way. Resolution. While some are not seeing "many reasons" to shoot 8K, I assure you there are benefits. Downsampling, re-framing, image noise scaling benefits in low light when scaling down, etc.... Additionally the concept of a Bayer Pattern Sensor having 4X the pixels than a target finishing resolution makes a hell of a lot of sense to me if you are going 8K to 4K. I'm also finishing a lot at 8K now, but I understand that's a long way from the norm. While I am painfully hesitant to use the term "future proof", an 8K master will last you an extremely long time.

In terms of Dynamic Range, while there has been a recent calibration change and I haven't run my DR tests since Helium's initial release (though I'll be doing again before the year is out), Dragon and Helium are in a rather "comparable" level of Total Captured Dynamic Range. Same can be said for pushing and pulling Latitude if you need to flex that muscle.

On the color front, RED's current focus for now and for the foreseeable future is this new IPP2 (Image Processing Pipeline 2) which works on all REDCODE RAW footage from every RED camera to date. However, Helium is the only camera technology that has the specific hardware to benefit from IPP2 internally. Which is something to note for sure. It makes all footage better, a bit more dimensional, and deals with out of gamut color a hell of a lot better. This isn't particularly a sensor technology specific improvement, it is an improvement where you are wanting to see improvements coming from.

Pixel quality is another interesting thing. At resolution and when scaling. There's differences there, both are good. Helium technically "sees" more detail if we are talking same shooting distance, lens, on a per pixel basis. Not saying sharpness, but actual captured detail. It's subtle, but there.


So if you're looking for the simple answer to the question, the improvements of Helium over Dragon in many ways can be summed up with Colorimetry and Resolution. I would perhaps add some notes about subtle differences in image noise and low light sensitivity.

The larger concepts summed up if we are considering Dragon 6K S35 and Helium 8K S35 sensor tech. Is Helium 8K an upgrade from Dragon 6K? The answer is yes, in some ways.

It's an interesting balance too. Some people really like the concept of 8K in the same approximate S35 format size, but some also don't like the frame rate caps/differences on a per format/resolution level. Meaning 6K on Helium is a tighter crop than 6K on Dragon. That's honestly not "that big" when you look at the actual crop to get those higher frame rates and the gains of 8K, and in the case of Weapon, 1-60fps filming at 8K benefits.

 

[rohan banerjee]

Each sensor has it's strengths and weaknesses. Love the Dragon highlight rolloff and overall performance when given enough light. Helium has a lower noise floor and, IMO, truer scene referred color.

Not sure how you are "developing" your RAW R3Ds into RGB imagery, but if you are using the Dragon biased color and gamma (i.e. DC2, DG4) settings that might explain why you aren't seeing some of the color precision of the Helium footy. Running footage of the same scene from both sensors through IPP2 might be worth your time to pixel peep.

I think it's also worth noting that in 2017 the performance of digital cinema cameras based on Bayer mask sensors has gotten close to the theoretical limit. These days I think less about better/worse and more about what "flavor" is best for a particular project. My expectation is that the next significant jump in performance will come from a different sensor tech. AFAIK, Sony is working on layered designs and researchers at various companies/institutes are working on photo sites that measure both intensity and wavelength individually.

RED has a history of aggressively pursing new technologies, it should be fun to see what they roll out over the next decade.

Cheers - #19

Thank you for your reply..so according to you the helium sensor is a better lowlight and less noisy camera with improved and more accurate color rendition... and an overall more aesthetically pleasing look over dragon.. i can't seen to disagree with you on that point. still i would love to hear more peoples opinions about this subject...

 

[rohan banerjee]

No need for rather large "fear" of being bashed. This is a question I get asked several times a week.

I've been fortunate to work with both Dragon and Helium 8K sensors for a long while now. The somewhat aesthetic based answer I can provide before diving into technical stuff is first think of a film stock. Let's say Kodak Vision 3. It does not reproduce "true to life" colors. It's got it's on flavor and color characteristics. I've found that generally Dragon has a similar concept to that and I would say Helium in some cases renders color "more true to life". It's a subtle color rendition thing and revealing the minor colorimetry differences in the two sensor technologies. Though you can match them rather easily when it comes down to it.

So the first note is, yep, subtle differences in color rendering/capture. However, because they are so very close in how they are mapped and calibrated that is why many see similarities between the two and honestly that's "okay".

Anyways.

To get this out of the way. Resolution. While some are not seeing "many reasons" to shoot 8K, I assure you there are benefits. Downsampling, re-framing, image noise scaling benefits in low light when scaling down, etc.... Additionally the concept of a Bayer Pattern Sensor having 4X the pixels than a target finishing resolution makes a hell of a lot of sense to me if you are going 8K to 4K. I'm also finishing a lot at 8K now, but I understand that's a long way from the norm. While I am painfully hesitant to use the term "future proof", an 8K master will last you an extremely long time.

In terms of Dynamic Range, while there has been a recent calibration change and I haven't run my DR tests since Helium's initial release (though I'll be doing again before the year is out), Dragon and Helium are in a rather "comparable" level of Total Captured Dynamic Range. Same can be said for pushing and pulling Latitude if you need to flex that muscle.

On the color front, RED's current focus for now and for the foreseeable future is this new IPP2 (Image Processing Pipeline 2) which works on all REDCODE RAW footage from every RED camera to date. However, Helium is the only camera technology that has the specific hardware to benefit from IPP2 internally. Which is something to note for sure. It makes all footage better, a bit more dimensional, and deals with out of gamut color a hell of a lot better. This isn't particularly a sensor technology specific improvement, it is an improvement where you are wanting to see improvements coming from.

Pixel quality is another interesting thing. At resolution and when scaling. There's differences there, both are good. Helium technically "sees" more detail if we are talking same shooting distance, lens, on a per pixel basis. Not saying sharpness, but actual captured detail. It's subtle, but there.


So if you're looking for the simple answer to the question, the improvements of Helium over Dragon in many ways can be summed up with Colorimetry and Resolution. I would perhaps add some notes about subtle differences in image noise and low light sensitivity.

The larger concepts summed up if we are considering Dragon 6K S35 and Helium 8K S35 sensor tech. Is Helium 8K an upgrade from Dragon 6K? The answer is yes, in some ways.

It's an interesting balance too. Some people really like the concept of 8K in the same approximate S35 format size, but some also don't like the frame rate caps/differences on a per format/resolution level. Meaning 6K on Helium is a tighter crop than 6K on Dragon. That's honestly not "that big" when you look at the actual crop to get those higher frame rates and the gains of 8K, and in the case of Weapon, 1-60fps filming at 8K benefits.

Thank you verry much for your very detailed reply.. you have verry clearly answered my question in the most technical and also the simplest way possible... verry much appreciated. thank you once again for your time...

 

[Matt Bai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FSwQpnqqvY


Like it or not the world is going to 8K after 4K. So, the camera is 8K and has years of mileage. How you could miss that?

 

[Matt Bai]

By the way who are you to request RED "Don't release any higher resolution sensors."

?

 

[rohan banerjee]

By the way who are you to request RED "Don't release any higher resolution sensors."

?

One of the faithful supporters of red who have educated and informed lots of people, both directors and cinematographers, about the technology and changed their perspectives and made them shoot red instead of film or other digital cameras since the very early days of red,one of the verry large amounts of consumers of red cameras, thats who i am. and i have some right to tell a company that i have completely supported and soon intend to buy a camera myself sometime in the near future about what i want from their future cameras as a consumer.

 

[rohan banerjee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FSwQpnqqvY


Like it or not the world is going to 8K after 4K. So, the camera is 8K and has years of mileage. How you could miss that?

i did not miss that bro, as i said clearly,"apart from 8k, apart from an improvement in resolution",i don't know how could you miss that? Please read and understand what i am saying and then reply to me with logic. As i said clearly don't attack me with stupidity...and i humbly request you that if you don't have anything substantial to add to this discussion/thread, then please don't overcrowd it with unnecessary posts...

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Hey Rohan. Wow so quickly getting derogatory here Matt.

I think Phil has put it perfectly. The actual sensor differences are minor. Dynamic range is about the same. Smaller grain w/ helium.

To me, the biggest benefit of helium is getting IPP2 in camera. Which allows things like (new beta) 3d luts to be burned into prores. And 3d luts in playback (new beta). I don't know why these types of things are an IPP2/heluim specific thing but they are.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

i did not miss that bro, as i said clearly,"apart from 8k, apart from an improvement in resolution",i don't know how could you miss that? Please read and understand what i am saying and then reply to me with logic. As i said clearly don't attack me with stupidity...and i humbly request you that if you don't have anything substantial to add to this discussion/thread, then please don't overcrowd it with unnecessary posts...

Please google the meaning of the word "stupidity" and consider being addressed yourself this way.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Which allows things like (new beta) 3d luts to be burned into prores.

Personally, until we can do that in 4K Prores, it's a bit of a moot point no?

 

[Phil Holland]

Personally, until we can do that in 4K Prores, it's a bit of a moot point no?

Not really, especially since most out there use this feature for dailies. I'd say in it's current beta state, pretty useful. But yes, more is better.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

I suspect that the move to Heluim was partly driven by cost and availability. Red released a lot of cameras at the same time and I would suggest they struggled to produce sufficient Dragon sensors. Heluim sensor production was probably easier and possibly cheaper and its introduction was accelerated to meet demand. This would partly explain the long delay and catchup for the software support that still today remains in Beta. Of course these comments are mere speculation and I have absolutely no inside knowledge of Red processes.

Having extensively used both sensors I would agree the differences are subtle but the Heluim is a small evolutionary step forward. I personally have rated the Heluim sensor 2/3rds faster than Dragon and this alone is a big win.

The fact Heluim is 8K has not proven popular with my clients who have to a man groaned when told the new sensor is 8K. I personally understand the advantages of 8K but the vast majority of my clients finish in 2K and are unconcerned with archival. Some projects have required a 4K master but even then the producers would be happy with 4K to 6K capture. Every production is concerned with data loads and 8K strikes the fear of God into them and I get asked can we shoot 6K or 4K. I explain to clients I can use compression to control data rates, supply 2k proxy files and that storage has got amazingly cheap but 8K has not been a selling point quite the opposite. The 8K Dragon VV sensor makes more sense as its only 8K when at full frame and @6K for S35 shooting. Most of my clients saw the advantage in 4K acquisition and even 6K but there is a diminishing rate of return on ever increasing resolution for most uses. If Red went even larger than 8K on its sensors I could not participate as I would only meet even more resistance from my clients.

 

[Stefan Kraus]

Nothing wrong with either sensor.
As more the technology goes forward the smaller are the increments between the last and the latest.
I love the IPP2 look and it needs very little grading similar to Alexa.
The noise floor of Helium is unprecedented, just the tendency to green tint is there. (Like magenta for mx)
I don't see the need for 4k prores bake in Luts. 2k is enough for dailies or cheap quick projects, you have still all the benefits of downscaling and the Red makes a great job of that. And a 4k prores quickly gets to a data rate similar of a Raw file.
I shoot a lot of 8k with RC 9:1 or 10:1 if there is not much action/movement and the quality is as good if not better as dsmc1 dragon at RC 6:1. And data would be about the same. Red code makes it possible for me to worry about WB etc. before transcoding in RCX on a MacBook Pro. So the scare about 8k post is a but overhyped. Just use 1/4 or whatever to preview and the hardware will catch up really quick.
The dragon in the Dsmc2 is a great tool so is the Helium.

Helium:
Pro: Resolution, noise floor low, low light, IPP2 in camera

Con: green tint, lack of established post infrastructure, some features only in beta FW, frame rates low

Dragon:

Pro: established infrastructure for post, cheaper to buy, higher frame rates

Con: noise, lower resolution


Look of both are great Roll off on the Helium with IPP2 (super soft) looks very Alexa like.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Well said Tom. I always said 4k prores is going to be used a lot with helium. Here's the thing though, NO 4444 prores in 4k. That is a big bummer. Interestingly, all 4 top red cams (helium weapon, epic-W, weapon carbon dragon, and magnesium weapon) do the exact same 4k prores, 30p in prores Hq.

Why this matters is if you have done any testing you will realize prores is about a stop cleaner than full debayer raw. Talking about normal compression ratios like 6:1. This is huge. Prores grain noise structure is good. It is done pre-r3d compression.

Raw is great. But I certainly don't always need it at all and I've been testing prores 4k Hq lately and its blowing me away. Wish we could haz 4444 4k and higher framerates. I want a mini and a red all in one. I love raw for lots of reasons, plus hdrx, but I also like to give post something they can't f-up.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Jake,

Yes 4K pro res is subsampled 4222 therefore limiting its usefulness. One chroma key job I did post was quite keen on 4k pro res over RAW thinking it would make life easier but the next job they were very clear that the RAW files gave them a better key so don't go pro res. Having said that I love I can make 1920x1080 proxy files and this goes a long way to making the 8K RAW files more palatable. Looking forward to applying looks to the proxy files rather than supplying them with flat gammas.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

I would have to agree with Jake here. 4K ProRes 4444 would be awesome! I’ve been shooting a lot of ProRes with our Helium and people love it. The 422 looks amazing and clients love that it fits into their Alexa Mini workflow especially with I give them the Medium Contrast / Very Soft LUT with it, but I know they wish it was 4444 for one reason or another. I’m a fan of R3D but like people have said a 1000x times on this forum, sometimes we have to give clients what they ask for, and ProRes is the new mastering format. (Wish Blackmagic would give ProRes for windows too for this same reason!!!).

 

[Phil Holland]

4K ProRes 4444. Interesting. I have no specific details on the encoder hardware specs, but in terms of pure Data Rates, it is possible. Especially if you aren't recording R3D.

Though you could make a conservative argument that it's "worth" shooting REDCODE RAW at those Data Rates.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

Agreed Phil. If it possible 4K ProRes 4444 ONLY that would be great for some client work that would prefer it. But for my work there is nothing better then R3D for the same data rate.