The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

[Tom Lowe]

R3D: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xd2z4layfbebc2g/A006_C019_0110RD.0003007F.R3D

 

[paulherrin]

awesome stuff, huge thanks for sharing

 

[Tom Lowe]

BTW, are there any good discussions on this forum about color grading underwater footage?

 

[Will Keir]

Thanks Tom. That looks like a place I could visit for a few years... The water has a beautiful coloring and it appears some decent visibility as well.

Sorry for the delay in posting images from Maldives. I will try to post more over the coming days when I have time.

My general impression of Dragon UW is very good. It's much sharper and has better DR than Sony F55, but in terms of color, I am still trying to get up to speed with post-processing underwater footage, especially F55, so I can see an apples-to-apples comparison. I might be able to post some Tiffs or something from F55 for comparison soon.

We did not use artificial lights at all on this shoot, for either camera.

Here is the R3D: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jemr5aiyz1fsg0d/A006_C019_0110RD.0004768F.R3D

 

[paulherrin]

BTW, are there any good discussions on this forum about color grading underwater footage?

tom, standby... if you want/need in-depth (pun intended) tips immediately feel free to email/pm

this should get you started with one easy process:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxUm6dB5Jgk

^this is not my method, but honestly however you get your shot to where you want it is fine...
but i do think there is a better way (and probable better ways than my way)

basically, you want to repair the red channel by mixing channels (selective color/channel mixer), adjust the water color (if necessary) via soft isolation/selection/keying, and adjust the contrast as usual with curves/level adjusments. all these work together and interact to get you there. you can also use high values in an unsharp mask to increase local contrast, i.e. clarity (or use alchemy/clarity adjustments in rcx/etc) and you may or may not want to isolate that to middle values to avoid artifacts. don't get carried away, don't remove all the watercolor, subtlety is what you want. sit tight and i'll get you guys something good, very busy at the moment.

as johnny mentions below, any lighting helps - tungsten is natively blue-deficient, which is actually good underwater imho as you've already got more than enough blue. that will help out your red channel tremendously and give you much more flexibility in post. plus you want to be well-exposed. some people like using red/uw filters - i recommend that on reds only when you have more light than you need.

 

[Johnny Friday]

We did not use artificial lights at all on this shoot, for either camera.

Here is the R3D: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jemr5aiyz1fsg0d/A006_C019_0110RD.0004768F.R3D

Lighting--even in daylight underwater as a fill can do magnificient things to your subject matter. In many cases you cannot see the effects to the naked eye, but once you begin coloring and pulling up values....it's a very effective tool to use even when it may not seem necessary and might be a pain to employ.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Thank you for posting the R3Ds Tom, they are a good example of how Dragon still exhibits the magenta contamination!

I encourage everyone to play with these frames in RCX, and try to achieve proper color balance by either using curves, three-way corrector or a combination of both, and as soon as you tint the shadows, and even the midtones, towards the warm side, you'll start seeing the familiar red chroma noise appearing on all dark areas and the shadows will start tinting magenta. A web size JPEG does not tell the story, look at them on your screens at proper resolution and you will see what I'm talking about. If you, for example, wanted to tint the yellows on the turtle shell towards a more cinematic orange, there is very little room to do so before all that chroma nastiness appears. Notice also how the water starts 'separating', the tones of blue between dark and light areas have very little tonal commonality, meaning, though they are technically the same color, they are separated by a few shades so that gradations appear every time you try to affect the blues, with the dark blues leaning towards a very noisy purple, and the light ones towards a very unsaturated cyan. I'm sure the same shot with MX would be basically useless, but in this particular case, Dragon suffers greatly too, to the point where, FOR LARGE SCREEN EXHIBITION, you could not do all the color grading this image would require.

Now, both examples are underexposed, the wide one by a tad over 2 stops, and the close up by almost 4 stops, so it remains to be seen whether they would behave better with a proper exposure, assuming of course, this is the best the camera can do and the shooter wasn't already shooting wide open. I believe proper exposure is key for proper color saturation, though Graeme has assured me it makes no difference, something that contradicts my experience.

Lastly, it would be great to see a comparison to the F55 under the same, or similar, situation and see if it offers better color accuracy and saturation or if it suffers from the same problems. That would be EXTREMELY helpful. I'm sure Dragon has more resolution and DR than F55, no arguing that here, but how it behaves color wise is the main issue right now.

Again, my first look at Dragon under ideal conditions, and properly exposed to boot, made a big impression on me. These examples, whether underexposure plays a role or not, are far from impressive.

Tom, I hope you understand I'm not taking a swing at you, I'm merely analyzing a sensor that seems so far to be the only solution to the a very grave issue we have been having with MX underwater. I thank you profusely for taking the time to post these, they are a true eye opener.

 

[paulherrin]

rudi, we must be looking at different images. i think it's a beautiful turtle and it appears as expected in the given conditions... considering/assuming the light levels and the fact that there is no red light as evidenced in the essentially useless/nonexistent red channel - of course you're going to get amplified noise if you try to pull it up. maybe other cameras effectively boost/nr their red channels in these situations - i dunno - but what you're seemingly asking for is something that i think should and can be done in post and what you're suggesting above is messing up the color correction. no offense. would love to see the sony footage for comparison - but all i'm saying is you're laying on the rhetoric rudi and i don't appreciate it because it's unhelpful at this point. forgive me if you're being sincere, but i just dunno because it sounds so unfair.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Paul,

No, I don't think we're looking at different images, I think you and I just very different ways to look at things, period. If I have ever given you the impression of being rhetorical just for the sake of listening to the sweet sound of my words, well, that couldn't be farther from who (I think) I am and how I project myself. I have an investment in RED of close to $300K at original retail value, which includes the 3 complete underwater systems I put for sale just a few posts back, plus 2 other full systems and several other cameras that I'm still keeping with all the associated infrastructure and accessories. I do want RED to be good, great, best, it is in my best business and personal interest. So, if my criticism, something I try to do both matter-of-factly but respectfully, comes across as trolling, again, you're getting it all wrong mate.

Now, it could be that I am the one getting it all wrong and, truthfully, my color correction skills may not be up to snuff even if I have been doing this for 30 years almost, starting with film and timing lights until now where I am a co-owner of a Quantel system. None of that means shit, I know people who have been diving for 40 years and are terrible divers, who simply amaze me by still being alive. My grading patterns and habits have been formed by simply being able to apply certain standards of corrections to the images acquired with many other cameras, some of which react better than others, but not being able at all to implement those tweaks to RED footage. Given the fact I have been shooting RAW since 1999 or thereabouts, that is not the reason either. So simply put, I do not know what I'm doing. Or RED footage is, under many situations, vastly inferior to other formats when it comes to color rendition and accuracy. EXCLUSIVELY underwater to be clear.

I manipulated those frames in RCX, isn't that already "post"? I also explained what I did and where to look for the issues I was describing, hardly an unsubstantiated running of the mouth. I ran them through very simple looks I use to prepare footage for real grading, and right then and there, they started exhibiting all the symptoms that end up meaning trouble in post, regardless of system or colorist used. You posted some JPEGS of your corrections of some problematic footage a while back, and I asked you to either post or send me 16 bit TIFF or DPX of said corrections, so that I could properly analyze your work and, hopefully, have one of the those epiphanies where I'd go "Wow, that's how to fix this problem, I would have never thought of that" or similar, because as you know, 800 x 400 JPEGS mean nothing. So before you accuse me of trolling, or whatever you wanna call it, I would ask you to put your money where your mouth is and show me/us how to fix it. I'm still waiting for those files from you. God knows that if you have a way to solve these problems, I will be the first one to praise you and send you a case of your favorite liquor, for you would have saved me a lot of headache and money. I have no doubt you are a gifted colorist, and I have no problem accepting that I am not, but enough of the "that's not how you do things" story.

Show me the money.

Really.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I have different exposures. Let me grab a couple more next time I get back to my house.

Rudi no offense taken. We are all on the same team.

 

[Jeff Whitehurst]

I don't see how the camera system is to blame, the image is underexposed. The red channel is in the dirt, RCX can't fix that as it lacks the required controls. All you can do with primaries is stretch the channel and change everything including the water.
Simply stated, no amount of pulling around sliders or curves in RCX is going to make the red channel in that scope look like a turtle.

Options - Change camera settings to let in more light, use an UW correction filter to balance the channels, add external lighting, fix it in post.

Hope it helps, Jeff

 

[paulherrin]

well, i don't have a lot of money to show you, but i'd be happy to show you some tifs (sorry, must have missed your request? which ones are we talking about? send me an email and i'll send you whatever you want.) the jpgs i've posted have not gone through a full process, are for basic demonstration purposes, and in many cases to show what can and can't be done just in rcx or a primary pass. and as you may know, i'm gathering up some frames to make an in-depth tutorial that you all will have a chance to see, please be patient because i do have many other projects and i'm just trying to help y'all as best i can with the time i have...

i don't mean any offense, rudi. i don't know what i'm doing either, so i appreciate that. all i'm saying about this particular image and the process you're trying to put it through in rcx - which is NOT really by any stretch a post/cc software if you compare it to anything else, it is simply a raw-processing program for r3d's and it does have some really nice and powerful features and for most images you can get as far as you may need to go, but it's not photoshop or resolve or quantel or smoke et al (nor is it meant to be, think adobe camera raw) - so all i'm saying about this situation is that you have a red channel that is absolutely starved, i mean, look at it yourself... (edit: jeff beat me to the punch, just see above!) it's non-existant/non-usable because of the conditions/exposure. in my experience that's 'normal' underwater because the water is a big red-killing filter. i don't have a lot of experience with other camera-systems underwater so i really don't know how they compare enough to speak as an expert. what i can say is that there are really simple - although including extra steps - processes that i've found work really well 99% of the time to get a really beautiful final image that's perfectly ready for the big screen. i believe every project shot on anything should absolutely go through a proper post-process - especially something shot in such harsh conditions as underwater. hopefully, handing over and entrusting some magic for these guys to use will help that situation even when it's not possible to hire someone. it still will take time (and longer if you're learning), and that still may be an issue, i know - but i can't do anything about schedules if you guys can't work it into your contracts and educate producers. that being said - probably there are color science improvements that can be made or even next gen sensor improvements... although dragon being much more sensitive - and oh yeah, this is still redColor3, not dragonColor btw - will help tremendously. in any case, getting good and proper conditions/lenses/lighting/filtration is always going to give better results... and as it were, i think you guys really need to be white-balancing in the water if at all possible (and not off the sand) for multiple reasons (see above, previous posts), it's just a good idea.

one note for tom - i'm sorry we're picking apart your image, it really is beautiful and we appreciate you sharing and probably you didn't do anything 'wrong'. although if you had the light to use a filter that would have helped, but i'm not sure you did. i'd probably start looking into underwater lights if you're getting into it. btw, make sure your monitor is calibrated... blue/aqua/cyan is really ticklish. in any case - the 'final' corrections look great and at the end of the day you got a turtle riding on a dragon and that's awesome and that's what matters and it is far beyond 'usable'. it's great work!

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Greetings All,

Just back from Iquique in northern Chile and the Esmeralda Expedition, would like to share some equipment notes from the shoot. We were working in less than 10 feet of visibility at a depth of 130 feet or so, surface water temperature was about 53 degrees, thermoclining to 47 degrees just above the wreck. Surge and current were mostly light, a few dives saw that increase to moderate or better.

Here she is pictured not long before the battle of Iquique; at the time of her sinking she was one of the older ships in the Chilean Navy, and had been designated as a training vessel. When the Chilean Navy sailed northward in pursuit of the Peruvian fleet, she was left to defend the blockade of Iquique, then in Peruvian hands. The Peruvian iron monitor Huascar engaged her, rammed her, Esmeralda sank with over 150 of her crew, many of them green young cadets. The actions of the Captain in the moments leading up to the sinking are widely regarded as some of the most heroic in Naval history, it is a story well worth reading.

[/URL] Corbeta_Esmeralda by Red Sea Pictures, on Flickr[/IMG]

Not the best conditions to work in, the first dive day attracted thousands of Jellyfish. Although not a species expert here, these were more or less the garden variety of Jellies commonly seen in the Pacific, we all got stung multiple times on the exposed bits around the regulators for our efforts, once going down, once again coming up. Very painful welts that lasted hours, planning to acquire a Sting Guard (http://www.stingguard.com) for Phase 2 of the project, in the event the more venomous and/or deadly types decide to show up.


A010_C002_0101W7 by Red Sea Pictures, on Flickr

Do apologize for focus issues re the above grab, at that point I was using Rouge as a battering ram. Wild ride on the descent.

Atomos Samurai Blade field recorder (http://www.atomos.com/samurai-blade/)

Mounted in the Rouge top port, came through in lots of ways. Primarily intended as a ProRes file backup for the R3D’s, I used the Blade monitor as an additional focus tool to supplement the Red LCD. In those conditions, pulling critical focus is difficult at best, the edge function helped. Possibly the greatest advantage though, having a top mounted monitor, in addition to the rear-mounted Red LCD, allowed for easy monitoring in some really tight spots on the wreck. Also very useful in our green screen work at the end of the shoot, we had to match actual wreck shots with pool work, the entire set was on the Blade drive, we were able to review, plan, and shoot using those reference files.

[/URL] A012_C045_0101LK by Red Sea Pictures, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/URL] A012_C018_010187 by Red Sea Pictures, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/URL] Rushes by Red Sea Pictures, on Flickr[/IMG]

Edge Dive Tech 32,000 Lumen Wasp (http://www.edgedivetech.com/wasp.html)

Possibly the only significant disappointment on the shoot. The advertised burn at 32,000 lumens is fifteen minutes, in our experience, less than ten seconds. The support folks did say that in order to get the spec burn you need to deep charge the batteries for several days, don’t really see how this could possibly be useful on a multi-day shoot. As this is a public forum I will say no more, other than if you are considering this unit for a professional job, please do your homework.

BigBlue VL15000P 6500K/160 degree beam (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1016475-REG/bigblue_vl15000p_chubby_rechargeable_led.html)

In sheer bang for the buck, $1400 for 15,000 lumens is a pretty good deal. The light worked as advertised, burn time as per spec, very satisfied with the results. Did not get a chance to play with the 1000 lumen red emitter arrays, but look forward to doing that on some planned pleasure diving shortly. Battery pack is removable for compliance with airline checked bag restrictions. Only drawback was buoyancy, two pounds negative in seawater, strapped on some non-compressible foam to fix that.

Zeiss Distagon 15mm F/2.8 Lens

Nice, nice, and really nice, so much sharper than the Canon wides. I'll let Ken Rockwell speak here, have nothing but praise. http://www.kenrockwell.com/zeiss/slr/15mm-f28.htm
Re underwater use, the lens does not have autofocus, does not report focus distance. With a lot of surge on the wreck, the very limited bottom time, and the constant danger of entanglement, my concentration was divided amongst several survival related tasks. As such, I found manual focus a distinct disadvantage, subsequently reverted to the Canon EF 8-15 in order to reduce task loading and make sure I nailed the shot. On a calm day in colorful tropical water though, this lens should really shine. Below grab is port of Iquique taken with the Zeiss, full scale replica of the Esmeralda in the background.

[/URL] A010_C045_01017N by Red Sea Pictures, on Flickr[/IMG]

Amphibico Rouge - flawless performace throughout. Kudos also to the Aquatica/Amphibico team, needed a port extender at last minute for the Zeiss lens, they put a crazy rush job on it, arrived in time for my departure. Great support from Joe Bendahan and Jean Brunneau, thanks guys.

Closing Notes

The project continues to be very fortunate in having a retired Vice Admiral of the Navy as one of its biggest supporters; tons of permissions required, not least that required to dive on this historically very significant wreck, the use of the Naval Academy's aircraft ditching training pool for our green screen work, access to museum artifacts recovered from the wreck over the years; amazing how many doors open with the right folks in place.

Possibly my biggest takeaway from the shoot though, the Chilean Navy team of divers were incredible. Precise, professional in every way, they accomplished the technical demands of this entire operation with seeming ease, watched over the dive/camera teams like hawks (tough to do in 10 feet of viz), even conducted several 'saves' during the course of the dive series. Tough as nails, but with really big hearts, just great guys all round.

[/URL] The Team by Red Sea Pictures, on Flickr[/IMG]

Relaxing back at home for a few, hope this post finds everyone well.

Cheers

 

[paulherrin]

well it sounds like y'all had a time of it yourselves battling those jellies... glad everybody's alright. great history, looking forward to learning some more

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Thanks Paul, kinda felt like Dory in Finding Nemo, woohoo, zap, woohoo, zap zap...:smiley:

Did mention your name to the Director, they will likely need a color guy at some point, if you could PM me your personal email, will fill you in on details. Cheers.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

White Shark cull in Western Australia

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?111689-White-Shark-cull-Western-Australia-Someone-make-a-film-about-this-please

 

[James Killion]

any of you guys update the bottom fan and have to make mods to the optitec nikon mount? got any photos of the revised mods?

thanks

 

[Johnny Friday]

RED FAN with Canon Mount

RED FAN with Canon Mount

This may or not be of any help...but here's a few snaps of the new fan with Canon mount. You will notice that the top of the RED fan cage has been milled down in order to get the mount to properly fit....

EDIT: the milling of the NEW Fan...was meant for the OptiTek Mount....it clears the Red Canon mount fine....I think this was unclear in my post as rightly pointed out by others...

 

[Jason Sturgis]

Hi James,
I went with the bottom fan upgrade and had to modify the Optitek mount so that it would clear the new fan. I threw the Nikon mount on and when all four screws were tight you couldn't move the iris gear... or move the lock for that matter. I am getting the Optitek back friday and can post some pics for you if you like. Right now I have the canon on so nothing that you haven't seen from Johnny's pics.

(

any of you guys update the bottom fan and have to make mods to the optitec nikon mount? got any photos of the revised mods?

thanks

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

Epic Dragon fan and Optitek ProLock

Epic Dragon fan and Optitek ProLock

As Jason points out, the new Dragon fan will interfere with the gear teeth on the Optitek ProLock. The teeth must be milled away, and it's a service Gates provides. Jacek @ Optitek says he can do this, too, but because the section to be cleared of teeth is specific we prefer doing the work.

We also have a new adapter gear for use with the Dragon fan in DEEP EPIC / DEEP DRAGON that clears interference with the Dragon fan.

J-

Hi James,
I went with the bottom fan upgrade and had to modify the Optitek mount so that it would clear the new fan. I threw the Nikon mount on and when all four screws were tight you couldn't move the iris gear... or move the lock for that matter. I am getting the Optitek back friday and can post some pics for you if you like. Right now I have the canon on so nothing that you haven't seen from Johnny's pics.

(