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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

Hi Tom, now this is last grab is very interesting…
https://www.dropbox.com/s/petpng41ojwt9rj/Nikonos-6K.jpg
Can I ask what housing you used, because you describe the shot as 'Nikonos 6K' and it certainly looks different to the 'dome' shots posted earlier.
Sharp, linear and very little CA.
You are going to love the Maldives, best fish curry in world. It's a great place but watch out for those currents…
Regards,
Phil
philipbarthropp.com
 
Alright, finally got some Dragon R3Ds shot under real world, ocean conditions and I have some preliminary opinions on the sensor,

First off, I have been a vocal critic of the issues with the MX sensor for some time now, so take me seriously when I tell you this sensor is a vast, vast, vast, vast improvement over thee MX. It feels in fact like a whole different sensor, with very different behavior on some important areas.

Resolution.
The obvious part. I've never much cared about 5K or 6K, 4K even debayered to 3.6K or whatever is good enough for me as long as I get colors I can work with. BUT, 6K yields some subtle benefits that are noteworthy. Sharpness and detail are of course greatly enhanced, but where it gets interesting is that in fact it helps with the perception of greater acuity, where because there are more pixels used in rendering every line or contour, things appear clearer and more defined. And if you move the Unsharp Mask slider to, say, 85, well, then background objects become sharper and the whole image appears more dimensional, with deeper focus throughout. This will no doubt be very helpful in dirty water/low vis situations, where the increased detail can help the images appear cleaner/sharper than they truly are. Again, I would gladly trade resolution for color accuracy, but assuming no trade offs are needed, then the increased resolution yields some appreciable benefits underwater.

Color Rendition.
Incredible leap forward here. The first thing that came to mind was how similar to the F65 the colors looked, and that is not a bad thing at all, it is quite a compliment. Where the MX sensor has always had a coarse, granular, unrefined look to its colors, the Dragon has a very clean, crisp, subtle, almost pastel feel to it. The RAW palette leans more towards yellow and orange as opposed to the brown/brick tone of the MX. Thus, the Dragon colors can be manipulated much more and more tones and nuances can be extracted. Saturation is light years ahead of the MX as well, with really fat, healthy channels that can be pushed to ridiculous levels of vibrance before breaking down. It is fair to assume that saturation, or lack thereof, won't be an issue with the Dragon.

Chroma Noise.
The familiar MX chroma noise in the shadows is still there to be sure, but it is far less present and barely bothersome, allowing to keep dark areas much more visible instead of crushing them to black as was the mandatory solution with the MX. I pushed the reds and magentas in the shadows of a couple of frames to really high levels and though the noise became quite apparent, I'm sure a little denoising would take care of it quite well. Also, the noise patterns are less blotchy than on the MX (maybe a result of more pixels?) so the chroma noise now is more grain-like instead of the macro-blocking and artifact appearance on the MX. I think the F65 still behaves better in this department (again, a result of more pixels maybe as it is an 8K sensor) but the Dragon is in this department quite acceptable, something that is rarely the case with the MX. To be clear, there is chroma noise there on all the familiar places like black suits or gear, but it can be dealt with.

Optical Aberrations.
Well, with all that increased resolution come some undesired byproducts to be sure. One of them is that fringing and chromatic aberration are now much more visible, or rather, better defined than before. The images that were sent to me are obviously shot with a good lens, but there was quite a bit of fringing around regulator hoses, gauges, second stages, valves, metal clips and all the usual suspects, but whereas on the MX this would look like blobs of color, now they are much better defined. So I think the need for superior optics with Dragon will become unfortunately clear ($$$) very quickly, and/or running the footage through software like Photoshop may be needed on instances where aberrations rear their ugly head a bit too much. Again, under well lit conditions or with the absence of metallic/highly reflective objects this problem is notably minimized, but I do expect this to be one of the issues of this sensor underwater.

Magenta Contamination.
Finally coming to the elephant quietly sitting in the middle of the room. Yes, the problem is still there. I saw it on EVERY clip, from stuff shot at 6 ft down to 90 ft. But it is FAR better. The blue water remains blue and the magenta tinting on the shadows is almost absent even when they are pushed aggressively towards magenta. It still takes quite a bit of tweaking to separate the water into a separate entity with its own colors if you push your lift/gamma/gain towards tones that favor reds or other warm colors, but it is doable. This is simply impossible on the MX, regardless of the amount of work put it. The random red speckles that plague the blues on MX are also still here, but now they are visible under magnification or close scrutiny. NOW, this footage was shot in the American Pacific, one of the better locations for this issue and where even with the MX, people are getting usable footage. Thus, I would have to withhold any further judgment until the Dragon can be shot under tropical conditions where the MX falls apart and yields images worse than even a GoPro. I expect the results to be better for sure but without proper testing, speculating on something like this is foolhardy at best.

So, Dragon does appear to be a massive leap forward compared to MX, though we don't yet know if enough to solve the problem that has plagued so many of us of late. IRRESPECTIVE of that however, switching to Dragon cannot be the solution, or the only solution, for many of us with heavy investments on both R1 and Epic MX bodies with their accompanying infrastructure of housings, etc, need to put those cameras to work, even if we don't get the beautiful colors and crisp definition of Dragon.
 
[I


MG] Sinking_of_the_Esmeralda_during_the_battle_of_Iquique by Red Sea Pictures, on Flickr[/IMG]

Thanks very much Rudi, for that detailed analysis. I am now setting in motion the upgrade of Epic 234 to the Dragon sensor, magenta issues notwithstanding.

The above oil painting is an artist's rendering of the epic battle of Iquique, a significant turning point in the sodium nitrate wars fought between Chile and Peru in the late 19th century. I have been commissioned to dive on the wreck of the Corvette Esmeralda, and film what remains of her, in the very capable assist, and presence of Chilean Navy divers. We will be acquiring a 3D photogrammetry capture of that glorious fighting ship, in the hopes of preserving her for all time, and in respect of all who died fighting that battle.

The dives will be deep, cold, and dark, she rests in a very forlorn place. But, I am bringing 23,000 lumens to bear on the project, as well as Zeiss Distagon glass, and of course Rouge at the forefront, I very much hope to do her the justice she so richly deserves.

Rudi old friend, wish me fortune, this is a very challenging shoot.

To all, a happy and successful New Year.

Tom
 
Thanks for sharing Tom.
 
Tom,

small world, I dove the Esmeralda back in 1994 I think. I was in Chile negotiating a permit to film the Dresden, the star wreck of the South Cone as it were, and took some time to reccon the Esmeralda. Close to shore so easy access but cold, murky water with strong currents, one of those dives that can get humbling, aka unsafe, very easily. If I were to go back there now, I would strongly contemplate using a rebreather, or dual tank set up for sure, and I would DEFINITELY use a scooter, not only to mount the camera but to keep me alive in those currents. Let me know if you have a lot of gear to carry down, I have an excellent private courier that knows how to transport fragile gear and keep it stored in safe places until you can pick it up and charges low prices. He serves all of South America.

On another note, they are trying to put the Goliath grouper back in the firing range, out of their moratorium, incredible! The fisheries commission will meet next week here in Key Largo to decide the fate of this magnificent animal. I guess one of the new commissioners is an avid fisherman and would love to land himself some big game. PLEASE sign the petition below, if we don't ever take the time to get involved in these issues somehow, believing that signing petitions, protesting or whatever does nothing against the powers that be, thene the only certainty we have is that they will prevail:

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/save-the-goliath-grouper.fb69?source=s.icn.fb&r_by=9742389
 
Rudi Herbert said:
On another note, they are trying to put the Goliath grouper back in the firing range, out of their moratorium, incredible! The fisheries commission will meet next week here in Key Largo to decide the fate of this magnificent animal. I guess one of the new commissioners is an avid fisherman and would love to land himself some big game. PLEASE sign the petition below, if we don't ever take the time to get involved in these issues somehow, believing that signing petitions, protesting or whatever does nothing against the powers that be, thene the only certainty we have is that they will prevail:

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/save-the-goliath-grouper.fb69?source=s.icn.fb&r_by=9742389
Click to expand...
Done, thanks Rudi!
 
Thanks Rudi, always listen to you with attentiveness, all precautions duly noted, we are in fact diving with scooters, Rouge/Epic/Zeiss/Blade will be swivel-mounted to a Suex unit. The shot list is quite extensive, ten days on site to get it done, hopefully a couple of days at slack tide/high noon will get most of what the production requires. As a very nice bonus, I have been invited to Santiago/Valparaiso for several days after the shoot in order to assist with R3D processing, as well as a restaurant/bar/Empenada tour of the area. That's a great way to warm back up after those dives!

Would certainly have taken advantage of your private courier had I known in time, but caution and experience dictate not revealing a project until the funds are in the bank, this business being what it is. As such, the clients are paying for excess airline baggage fees, which will be extensive. I am fervently calling upon the Dive Gods to prevent the Cabal of Miami Airport Ramp Rats and their TSA Overlords from getting their sticky fingers into the delicate stuff, namely the lighting package, hopefully, and with luck, the Gods are listening.

Petition signed, not the only travesty happening up and down the Florida coastline. A shooter in last year's Great Hammerhead adventure posted on a sport fisherman board asking for restraint in killing these animals, the response was a blood-soaked Great Hammerhead head on his doorstep early one morning, severed just aft of the gills, possibly a 16-foot specimen, with a very threatening note attached. These are the Neanderthals we are dealing with.

Those of you going there this season, please be careful where you post that footage if possible, exact locations probably not a good idea to mention. Rudi, I will be on a private boat this February, if you are free my friend, please join us, beer on me, as much as you are able to consume, in a renal-friendly manner.

Tom
 
Phil Barthropp said:
Hi Tom, now this is last grab is very interesting…
https://www.dropbox.com/s/petpng41ojwt9rj/Nikonos-6K.jpg
Can I ask what housing you used, because you describe the shot as 'Nikonos 6K' and it certainly looks different to the 'dome' shots posted earlier.
Sharp, linear and very little CA.
You are going to love the Maldives, best fish curry in world. It's a great place but watch out for those currents…
Regards,
Phil
philipbarthropp.com
Click to expand...

That is interesting Phil, hadn't noticed that it was shot on a Nikonos, do you know if he used Pawels housing?
 
Hi Jon,

I haven't had an answer to my post yet so I can only speculate.
It's a long travel to the Maldives from the States, almost as tough as travelling from the UK to Tonga, so give it time.

I would think a DeepX don't you? I haven't seen another nikonos mount type housing that I'd trust my nice new Dragon in and that shot in the pool does look rather good.

Catch up soon,

Phil

philipbarthropp.com
UnderWaterFilm Ltd
 
Hello Gents,

That saying of hard drives do fail just came true and I've lost about 300 hours worth of mini DV footage that I need to redigitize. Anyone have a mini DV or DVCAM deck they want to sell or rent me? No cameras, I need a deck as my footage is a mix of NTSC and PAL. I've seen some options on Ebay but they look more abused than an Egyptian slave in the middle of building the pyramids...
 
rudi, (haha, pyramids) sorry for your loss :/ i should have access to one at a place i used to work and could do it there, otherwise i can see if they have one they might part with on a sale/rental. as to your other post on dragon... very cool, i'm hoping to see some more water-dragon r3ds soon (:

just plunging back into the depths of the internet here and trying to equalize back into the chamber :bigear:

-^-^-

as for white balance, i simply think it's a good idea to set your white balance at least in the ballpark at depth underwater (or anytime you're shooting) - if you got a good eye just try to match the color of the water that you're seeing, or a main object in the foreground. this works as reference and may actually affect the r3d compression (i'd like see some more of you guys stress-test this out). even better, shoot a color/grey card... (:

y'all be careful around those sandy bottoms :smash:

bjorn - spot on about underexposure...

rafa - great edit/frames/location/subjects/etc! that first u/w shot is absolutely beautiful. crazy chrominess - what caused that?
[your shot at 3:04 has black-bars, may wanna push in on it]
really like them sea-turtles...

tom - super sharp. thank you for sharing! (:
i <3 that pool...

jon/phil - see the title and description of tom's video... gates :rolleyes5:
 
Headed to Maldives late tonight. If anyone has any specific types of shots they would like me to try on Dragon, let me know. We will have an F55 with us also and will try to shoot side-by-side, apples-to-apples tests.

Regarding the sample frame, yes we are trying out various housings, including some that have been mentioned.
 
Thanks Tom,

I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Safe journey,

Phil

philipbarthropp.com
UnderWaterFilm ltd
 
Tom Lowe said:
Headed to Maldives late tonight. If anyone has any specific types of shots they would like me to try on Dragon, let me know.
Click to expand...

sweet, have a good trip (:

i'd love to get an r3d of a sun-spot through the water at depth (10-30m+), preferably with something silhouetted in the foreground as well...
 
Tom,

Some of the shots we've been using to test filters are thus:

1- upper 3/4 of total image area occupied by water, with surface on top and a gradation towards deeper/darker water towards the bottom and then a patch of sand/reed at the bottom of the frame. shooting this both into and away from the sun and at depths between 20 ft and 50 ft. 2 shots.

2- bottom 3/4 of total image area occupied by reef area with a patch of water on the top, both into and away from the sun, 20 ft to 50 ft. Distance from reef should be 3-4 ft and then 10-15 ft. 4 shots.

3- upwards facing shot into the surface with sun in the middle, both exposed for the sun and for the lower dark water, i.e: 1-2 stops over exposed and under exposed. 2 shots.

Those 8 shots (combination of into and away from sun as well as distances from subject) should give a very good idea of how the sensor deals with water tonality gradation and light transmission/absorption values, as well as saturation and accuracy of the red channel. Having the F55 perform the same tasks would of course be invaluable as it is a direct comparison point to the sensor tech (Sony's) which is generally acknowledged as being the most accurate color wise underwater.

If you have any red filters with you, then performing all the setups with and without filter would be very helpful, but if not, at least set up 2 for sure.

Safe dives,
 
Gents,

I have made the decision to reduce my rather large RED inventory, thus, I will be putting up for sale some nice underwater systems. Complete, ready to shoot out of the box stuff, probably 3 full systems like this. The last time I posted a couple of R1 MX cameras for sale on Reduser I got nothing but silly low ball offers from dreamers but then I sold them on Ebay, so I will be posting the gear directly onto Ebay and the Wetpixel forums. However, in case anyone here is interested, let me give you some preliminary info on what I'm selling:

- RED ONE MX/Gates Deep Red complete system.

R1 MX camera, battle tested, refurbished by RED (for a fellow bubble blower I can include a camera that has not been used at all since bought from RED).
SSD module, 2 x red brick batteries & charger, 1 x 320 GB Red Drive with drive cable and power cable, red 5.6" LCD monitor with cable, Optitek Nikon Mount, choice of Tokina 10-17 fisheye lens or Tokina 11-16 superwide, both come with fitting focus and zoom gears for Gates housing.

Gates Deep Red housing, used but in great condition, one of them used to belong to legend Howard Hall and I am the second owner. With 8" dome port and matching ring extenders to perfectly align with either of the above lenses, the 10-17 or the 11-16. Trim weights, all spare o-rings and tools as provided by Gates. Red 5.6" LCD housing with newer style cable as well as spare older cable.

Pelican cases and such to contain everything.

$15,500 for the FULL camera & housing, ready to shoot system!

In 2013, I used these systems very little so for the first time I put them up for rent and I'm glad I did as they made me money. They were rented a total of 13 times and I made an average of $3,500 per time, and of course, given that I gave very good deals on the rentals to friends, I could have made much more. The point is, at the price I'm asking, they can pay for themselves in half a year. I placed one of them with a local rental house where it was used for a few music videos and a couple of TV series produced locally, while the other one was rented as a B package to two different productions and sent to a Caribbean island where it was rented to several shooters that did not want to travel with their own systems. Interestingly, very few rental houses have full underwater packages for rental, so they are quite receptive to working out deals. Likewise, I was surprised how many experienced shooters are eager to rent a reputable system as backup on location rather than traveling with it, so for those who live on locations around the Caribbean, etc, this could be a great little package to rent out. Or you can just use it as your own A or B system, a complete system for less than the price of an used Epic body!!!

Anyway, anyone interested let me know, otherwise they'll go on Ebay in a few days as soon as I get the time to take photos, etc.
 
Headed to Maldives late tonight. If anyone has any specific types of shots they would like me to try on Dragon, let me know. We will have an F55 with us also and will try to shoot side-by-side, apples-to-apples tests.

Regarding the sample frame, yes we are trying out various housings, including some that have been mentioned.
Click to expand...

Maldives very useful for for shallow blue water, bright sunlight, big animal shots, would be great to see Dragon following said animals from full sun to full dark.
 
1463901_686385281393778_503003588_n.jpg

She's Alive!
 
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