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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

Anything to combat the Magenta issue is of great value Jarred. That said, i'm sure most shoot single camera that goes underwater and then used topside. If it does come down to the OLPF then that might be best....but a different build certainly would be welcome if in fact it is how data is being received and recorded. In the end, when transitioning underwater to topside....if one needs to change builds, then that's not so bad....but will this need to be something red then has to keep up with each build? one for the masses and then one for underwater? Is that even feasible? I'd be pleased to give it a go next week when i am doing some lens testing for an upcoming commercial....i can load new build to camera A and leave my camera B with latest build. I'll be in pool testing various lenses, before i head out for an upcoming job. I'm sure i'll not be the only one willing to shoot tests....i'll be under some controlled environment for a bit....

....or am i posted in the hallway someplace....? ----egg shells cracking as i creep.
 
We use the Epics mainly on the Atom inside the Deep Atom for 3D shooting however we will also use this rig topside depending on script and how many 3D rigs are on a shoot. Something versatile for both topside and underwater would be most useful.
 
Jarred Land said:
Ouch.. worst thing we have been called all month :)

heh heh heh.

This should be fun... Graeme is getting a ton of great feedback already so thank you.

I have a question for you guys.. with your UW Epics, do you use them very often out of water during a specific shooting day? i.e if you had a custom build with color science and some internal optics that you could use but it would be tuned specifically for UW work, would that be of value?
Click to expand...


Ha ha... I thought that might elicit a response.
I could only speak from my experience. I do camera work mostly in location either in the sea or in a pool. Most commercial shoots are less than 5 to 6 m. In my case UW shot the Epic is preferred as it is compact to fit into a housing. I almost always used the Gates deep epic. That Epic stays in the housing for the entire shoot. Since I shoot mostly in controlled environment I have not really encounter really bad magenta cast issue except when I dive in the sea which has more varied condition and visibility.
I have had request for "cough cough" to shoot UW with Alexa but due to the size of the camera it is less manageable. Certainly not a camera for remote locations without a bigger budget. Not one issue with colour problems. Have not done really deeper shoots but the colour never really a problem here from what I know by others. Same goes for C300.
If there is a build just for UW conditions I whole heartedly welcome that. Especially if conditions and settings could be punched in and the results are predictable. Collectively we could create a database for different sea conditions, light levels and depth. Even the type of lenses that works well with the version of Epic built I am all for it. So far we have not even got pass the port problem. I'll stop now.
One big RED happy family.. one day.
 
I know Jarred and Graeme have already chimed in - and are a heck of a lot smarter than me - but wanted to throw my hat into the ring as well...

For what it is worth, I think RED has done a pretty good job over the years listening to feedback and addressing it, when possible. Heck, a ton of features that have made it into hardware and firmware design have been spawned here on REDUSER. But the one thing we need is data - exactly what Jarred is asking for. Opinions and hypotheses without the data to back it up will have us jumping down rabbit holes. I know a lot of you are already gathering up data as I write this, so - thank you.

If anyone here feels their voice has not been heard, I apologize. Much like Jarred and Graeme, I wish I could spend way more time on REDUSER than I already do. If we don't chime in on a thread, it is not because we don't care. It is because we have so many hours in the day. Fortunately, we have others in this community who see a fire getting started and will let us know. Like this thread's current direction....

So, please do get us that hard data - R3D files, examples of true A/B testing, etc. No one loves a challenge more than Graeme. If anyone can get to the bottom of it, it is him.

Let's work together to see if we can find a smoking gun....
 
Jarred Land said:
Thanks guys this is great.. Graeme and I had a discussion this morning and he is ready to dig in, if you guys could email him as much info as you have it would be great so he can get his head around it. If this is just a OLPF issue we have no problem cooking you guys up your own underwater filter to make sure you get the wavelengths you need... but lets make sure we know what's going on before we go down that road. Graeme@red.com.
Click to expand...
Hi Jarred,

Thanks for taking this matter in hands!
The path which Rudi and I followed at RED last time was a very frustrating one.
A couple of times "they" made us/me feel like we didn't know how to use a camera or the laws of physic/optics underwater.
I'm very glad Graeme is in the loop now because last time I got "reprimanded" by Brent because Rudi tried to contact Graeme as no progress at all was made.
RED stated Graeme was already in the loop due to the nature of the reported issue.
Just a little remainder of frustration on my part I guess ;-)

I'm still a RED believer and fan, heck, I even pre-ordered a Dragon-upgrade (granted, for free) and also a RED ROCKET v2 (not for free).
I truly hope you guys can work it out.

I'm sure Rudi can pass you a lot of information.
I can resend you mine when I'm back home in two weeks.
I'm also happy to provide you with my camera, as I did last time, if RED provides me with a loaner.

As told to Brent half a year ago, the problem appeared to be less persistent after I got my camera back from RED.
But I think that's mainly due to the fact that I now have better control over the Epic.
When we opened the case I had the Epic only since a couple of weeks and my previous camera was..... a DSLR....
So you can imagine the huge learning curve I had!
That's why, at a certain point, I was convinced I simply couldn't operate the RED, that it was my fault, as RED implied.
I also started shooting with artificial light, whereas before I mostly shot ambient (style preference).
And I have the idea if the sensor gets hit by a bit of artificial light, the problem is way less.

I don't think I still have the footage from back then, though I had a great Shark shot which I definitely haven't deleted.
That shot has a lot of noise and colors are NOT correctable without DV Resolved very heavy second grading.
But then, as Rudi says, it's only good for "the little screen".

If you need anything from me to get progress in this matter, please contact me (michaelmaes AT me.com).
I would be so happy this issue got solved for everybody who's experiencing it.
And I won't charge a dime for it! ;-)
Thanks again for your interest!
 
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Brent@RED said:
I know Jarred and Graeme have already chimed in - and are a heck of a lot smarter than me - but wanted to throw my hat into the ring as well...

For what it is worth, I think RED has done a pretty good job over the years listening to feedback and addressing it, when possible. Heck, a ton of features that have made it into hardware and firmware design have been spawned here on REDUSER. But the one thing we need is data - exactly what Jarred is asking for. Opinions and hypotheses without the data to back it up will have us jumping down rabbit holes. I know a lot of you are already gathering up data as I write this, so - thank you.

If anyone here feels their voice has not been heard, I apologize. Much like Jarred and Graeme, I wish I could spend way more time on REDUSER than I already do. If we don't chime in on a thread, it is not because we don't care. It is because we have so many hours in the day. Fortunately, we have others in this community who see a fire getting started and will let us know. Like this thread's current direction....

So, please do get us that hard data - R3D files, examples of true A/B testing, etc. No one loves a challenge more than Graeme. If anyone can get to the bottom of it, it is him.

Let's work together to see if we can find a smoking gun....
Click to expand...
Thanks Brent!
No offense meant, but I sent you a ton of data in December. Do you still have that data?
If not I will try to find it again.
Warm regards,

Michael
 
Outstanding & thank you Jarred & Graeme ...
 
Jarred Land said:
Ouch.. worst thing we have been called all month :)

heh heh heh.

This should be fun... Graeme is getting a ton of great feedback already so thank you.

I have a question for you guys.. with your UW Epics, do you use them very often out of water during a specific shooting day? i.e if you had a custom build with color science and some internal optics that you could use but it would be tuned specifically for UW work, would that be of value?
Click to expand...

Normally we have a camera dedicated for shooting underwater on a particular day, however there are times when it is necessary to have that same camera filming a topside sequence on the same day. Having the capability of being able to switch between underwater and topside would be useful, although the switch over doesn't necessarily have to be quick.
 
Of course, Michael. As does Graeme who was most definitely in the loop last time, not just "now". And forgive me if my attempt to funnel communications through one conversation instead of two was received as a "reprimand".

I won't go into direct communications between a customer and RED, I can only simply state that for us to dig deeper into this issue, we need more data than we currently have. Hence, us asking for that data as well as this community's assistance in the matter. You are the underwater experts, not us!

Michael Maes said:
Thanks Brent!
No offense meant, but I sent you a ton of data in December. Do you still have that data?
If not I will try to find it again.
Warm regards,

Michael
Click to expand...
 
Rudi,

Your input is greatly appreciated, thank you.

Jarred, RED team, thanks for looking into this issue, it is also greatly appreciated and we are looking forward to the solutions.

Rudi Herbert said:
Being certain this is not an issue caused by the underwater medium, I would then be forced to believe that the underlying condition must manifest itself during land shoots, and were it to be solved, all RED users across the board would benefit greatly.
Click to expand...
 
Jarred Land said:
Ouch.. worst thing we have been called all month :)

heh heh heh.

This should be fun... Graeme is getting a ton of great feedback already so thank you.

I have a question for you guys.. with your UW Epics, do you use them very often out of water during a specific shooting day? i.e if you had a custom build with color science and some internal optics that you could use but it would be tuned specifically for UW work, would that be of value?
Click to expand...

Glad we could be of service :)

I shoot 90% of everything underwater but I do like doing some oddball topside stuff. Although I just got off the phone with Graeme so I think that this is going to be very educational once I do what he suggested. I should be testing this Sunday.

Thanks for the ideas too really appreciated.

Brent@RED said:
You are the underwater experts, not us!
Click to expand...

LOL!!! ;-)

I have no idea what the hell I am doing
 
Brent@RED said:
Of course, Michael. As does Graeme who was most definitely in the loop last time, not just "now". And forgive me if my attempt to funnel communications through one conversation instead of two was received as a "reprimand".

I won't go into direct communications between a customer and RED, I can only simply state that for us to dig deeper into this issue, we need more data than we currently have. Hence, us asking for that data as well as this community's assistance in the matter. You are the underwater experts, not us!
Click to expand...
I'll try to give as much input as I can.
But I'm on the road through Europe without camera and data so it will take a while :-/
One thing is for sure: there is no one on this forum who can pinpoint the issue and give detailed information as Rudi.
He is a true expert and deserves all merits in this case.
I just hit the record button... and saw things were wrong.

When I'm home I will deliver the Shark footage.
I and many others only want this solved for once and for ever and I want to cooperate in any way I can.
Personally I have no problem whatsoever to have the Epic as a dedicated underwater camera.
I have the intention to buy a second one (Dragon) for topside shooting.

Once again: thanks to the entire RED team to dig into this! I hope this time, with the entire group input, you nail the "bug" :-))
Cheers!
 
I stumbled upon this thread (and current topic) and found it quite interesting. I have not done any underwater shooting with our EPICs, but they could be rented for such projects, so I'd love to see a solution for this.

I got to thinking, and it occurred to me that perhaps Black Shading could be central to the issue. Since it takes ~20 minutes to Black Shade the camera, I would guess that shooters are not doing this at depth and at the temperature of the shooting location. I haven't read the entire thread here :-) but is it common practice to dive and then calibrate the sensor, or is that usually not done because it is inconvenient and/or difficult?

I've seen magenta come into footage when our camera has gone from warm to cold temperatures and Black Shading fixes that. I'm only assuming this would be greatly exaggerated at extreme temperature changes from top side to depth. Also, could pressure be an issue? Perhaps calibrating in the environment's native pressure would be helpful?

If so, Having the ability to save Calibration profiles for varying temperatures and depths could be beneficial.

If this has been spoken of previously, I'm sorry I missed the posts, but I just hope I can be of help in resolving.
 
Casey Green said:
I got to thinking, and it occurred to me that perhaps Black Shading could be central to the issue
Click to expand...
Hi Casey,

I don't think it has been done already.
I do it quite often but.... at home.

I was (and am) planning to dedicate a dive to perform a black shading at 60 feet.
I will send the results to RED and to RU.
Loved your input!
 
I've seen magenta come into footage when our camera has gone from warm to cold temperatures and Black Shading fixes that. I'm only assuming this would be greatly exaggerated at extreme temperature changes from top side to depth. Also, could pressure be an issue? Perhaps calibrating in the environment's native pressure would be helpful?
Click to expand...

Hi Casey,

These cameras are installed in sealed aluminum (mostly) housings, there is no pressure change involved as they descend. The pressure gradients are absorbed by the housing body itself, most housings have a crush depth beyond which they cannot go, as stated in the manufacturer's literature.

Since the housings are sealed, the heat generated by the camera is likely to increase the temperature inside the housing, this being offset in varying degrees through heat transference via the aluminum housing body to the colder water outside.

I black shade in the morning before the first dive, and via a large capacity battery and media card, try to keep the housing sealed for the duration of the shoot. Salty air, spray, and pitching boats in heavy seas have been known to ding an expensive camera or two :-)
 
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