The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

[Tom Hamilton]

Johnny, thanks for your comments.

I've gone back through the RCX steps I took for that clip, it certainly looked a lot better on my Panny plasma monitor than it did after being churned through the Vimeo engine. That having been said, the color science issue represents some very steep learning curves in my immediate future, Mark I Eyeball no longer cuts it. One thing to be a competent u/w shooter, entirely another to be a professional editor and colorist.

I do not have an HP DreamColor monitor that can customize color space presets, so what I get, is, what I get, never know how it will look on the other end. Will be investing there shortly, the stuff I'm doing at the moment requires best results for Rec709.

WRT the clip, I note that some folks advise using ProRes HQ as opposed to 4444 for certain output situations, gamma related apparently. To that end, FCP-X seems well on the way to replacing the necessity of using RCX, many of the RCX look sliders are now present in the latest iteration. Have you switched back to FCP, or are you still using the Adobe platform?

Rudi, can I FTP the file to one of your servers? Barring that, PM me your snail mail, I'll send you a thumb drive.

Cheers

 

[Johnny Friday]

Personally....RCX is no longer an option for me....it just does not represent in the WYSIWYG world....(what you see is what you get). This has been confirmed by many professionals working in coloring. Unfortunately to get the results many of us require or are asked....we need additional tools and skills beyond diving/shooting. This is very apparent with shooting R3d and RAW. At the very least, a reliable plasma tv via an I/O card like AJA or Black Magic or Matrox is key in developing images that you have spent hours or even days coloring so that they look as you colored them across multiple platforms. Otherwise, what's the point...we have then just wasted hours and days and weeks of our time. Personally i knew nothing about this and color science or for that matter hardware requirements...after a few years, i only have scratched the surface and spent thousands on good and bad equipment.
As for prores---well, back to question one...WHAT is your delivery requirement? And what has client asked for? In TV that is normally Prores and 4444 is best quality. Getting there from R3d is another thing all together....FCP; PrPro and the other non-linear editors are just that--Editors. Not color correction programs....FCPx i'm told is getting better and i'm playing with it now. But i don't see how we can color in it with no preferences to set color space and output space....I have been in many talks with Howard Hall and George Waite an editor/colorist and everyone uses different programs. Howard i know has good results with Color. But color it seems has a limited life in coloring....What i know and feel compeled to move towards is Resolve...but that requires a full hardware RE-CONFIG on my part. But if coloring it's way beyond what many of us need, but results that i have seen are WYSIWYG when coloring R3d and outputting Prores.

there are many other options worth trying out there: Adobe Speedgrade comes to mind as well as After Effects....the list goes on, but I think in the realm of "affordable" they are:
*speedgrade
*after effects
*resolve

This again would make for a meaningful ongoing article on Rudi's site. As well as individual workflows and results. This end of our work---as Underwater Shooters---is now just as important as the shooting itself. Capture wonderful images and then if you can't show how wonderful it is, then hard to convince anyone that it truly is wonderful.

**frustrating to say the least.
Frazier? you must have something to say on the subject having a nice editing suite?

**I've added a few photos when Paul was helping me cut and color at my house a 52min doc which turned out pretty good color wise. Now almost a year later...and what i know...we can make tune it up and add 20% better color to it...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Now, that's the kind of street I would like to live at:

http://twitpic.com/b8muft

...and no more vehicle accidents

 

[Johnny Friday]

or you can just be minding your own business driving your VW bug down the reef and:

[/url] After: R3d by RedCineUnderwater, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url] Bettle View of Sharks by RedCineUnderwater, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url] Luke and Mobile Shark Observation by RedCineUnderwater, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Sounds like a plan guys, yes I can send some footage to you Rudi (pm me your email and I will send you a download link) and and still to you Pawel. Glad to hear that you guys aren't finding it a walk in the park either, I get ok results but I really feel that we should be getting mind blowing results.

hi Jon, I had a quick look at your R3D.

The red has about 3-4 stops lower exposure than blue channel, which is only one part of the problem in particular in clear water like Tonga. Colour filter would help you get full exposure of red channel and give you more flexibility in post, but would not really fix the look other than reduce red channel noise. The problem is that the white on the whale flippers has exactly the same level red as the background (blue water) and any attempt to lift the red up on the flippers will make the water look magenta (whether in post or through a colour filter).

You can try creating a mask using either blue or green channel that would separate the areas that you would want to look white. Then lift the red in that region only using the mask, but leave the water as is. You do not want to lift red in the water. So, the trick will be to be able to create a mask to balance the red deficiency on the subjects only. Then, apply an S curve, denoise, sharpen ...whatever.

Unfortunately there is little you can fix without going into complex painting using masks and I think it is your best choice.

The best way to improve the situation in the field is to shoot with the sun behind and get close, which is easier said than done...maybe get a smaller housing next time.....

Also (in the field) you could use a 3-stop red filter (minus 3 stop green and minus 3 stop blue) to get better exposure of the red channel and therefore less noise and more flexibility, but this means +3 stops wider aperture, shallower dof, and softer image...it will make water look magenta too, but you can deal with this by using masks for colour balancing as described above. Hard to win this one

stunningly beautiful shot, BTW!

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Jon, Tom,

Sorry, I've been a little busy, my father has taken seriously ill. Tom, you can upload your file here:

Host: ftp.underwatercinema.com
Username: ideasinblue
Password: 2Upload!

John,
Pawel is right, him and I agreeing is rare but he is right. If you look at the shot on the scopes, you'll see not only a lot of separation between red and green and blue, but also, each channel resides in a separate part of the spectrum almost, red in the shadows, green in the midtones, blue in the highlights. They almost don't overlap at any point so is very difficult to recreate any colors since you need a little bit from all channels to have information you can work with. A red filter on the lens would have DEFINITELY made a BIG difference, bringing down green and blue to within a range closer to where the red resides. But, given how shallow you were and how wide the lens is (you said it was the Tokina 10-17, right?), thus how close to the subjects you were, and how forgiving the RED cameras are under these conditions, I have to assume that your aperture was either very narrow, over F 11 likely, and thus you had some healthy dose of diffraction, and your general exposure was very low. The histogram should be a lot fatter in such shallow water but it is quite thin. Diffraction compounded with low exposure would indeed yield this particular result, lots of separation between the channels, and when you have that, it is difficult to fix anything to an acceptable level.

BTW, to help with this particular problem in shallow water, I have been using the Magic Filter gelatin filters and sticking them right in front of the sensor of the camera, a double layer of the gelatin. This gives me excellent color balance and acts as a 2 1/2 stop ND, so I can use apertures between F 4 and F 8, and not be limited by diffraction so much.

I guess at this point the only thing I would recommend is just increasing the contrast and brightness in the image and leave it as is, even if you're willing to use a power window around the whales and track it, it wouldn't really do much. And yes, great looking shot.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Thanks Rudi, underway at the moment, dealing with the aftermath of the hurricane, upload to you as soon as I get a moment, some electricity, and a connection.

Cheers

 

[Matt Ferraro]

This discussion on color is very informative, thank you to everyone participating.
On another note, in my on going quest to seek out all housing options I have been trading emails with Pascal Courtin at Subspace in Switzerland getting information about their housing for the Epic. He sent me a flyer with some specs for the housing and I thought I would share it with the group (with his permission of course). To be completely transparent I am in no way affiliated with Subspace.


SUBSPACE PICTURES presents,
the first Red Epic®, Scarlet® or One® underwater housing tested 200 meters deep.
SUBSPACE PICTURES developed an underwater housing for Red Epic, Scarlet or One camera. This particular housing is machined in Swiss made aluminium alloy, this technique approved in aeronautic industry gives the best resistance you can have from machined parts, due to material homogeneity, guarantee with no porosity. This also gives the best ratio in terms of weight and resistance. This technique, combined with our 20 years of experience and the Swiss conception gives the best results in terms or reliability.
We tested this housing 200 meters deep to make sure our customers can do their job in security in the worst conditions. This underwater is made for professionals, we know that your job is to go through the limits of scuba diving and that your goal is to come back with images that nobody took before.
To help you in this particular work, you need the most reliable tools on the market. That's why we put all our efforts on reliability and simplicity; you also need robust and easy to maintain tools. We also know we need to do our best to give the right buoyancy to those housings as well as the right positions for handles and controls.
Any lens on the market can be adapted on this housing. A glass dome port (or flat port) can take place on this housing, if necessary we can add a tube in front of the housing to fit long lenses. A matte box is available.
A zoom or a fix focus lens can take place in this housing without modifications; you can also use multiple lenses.
We developed a housing for the Red touchscreen 5 inches monitor, this housing, user friendly is easy to open and close if you need to go through the settings.
The Redmote® take place at the back of the housing, in a separate compartment, this is the best we can do to make sure you won't flood your camera, even if something happens to your housing during the dive or if something goes wrong, with rough weather and all things happening in this kind of journey, we know we need to consider every parameter as a serious one.
We are used to develop custom housings, let us know if you need something special as a remote, a video output, anything...
Mechanical controls : Camera controls : Camera : On / Off , Rec / Stby All Redmote® functions Lens : Focus, Diaphragm, and Zoom
Technical specifications :
Diameter Ø280mm - Width 330mm - Height 330mm - Length 550mm
Weight (housing only) : 17 kg - Weight with camera, lens and battery : 27 - 30 kg
Price :
24'800.- CHF ( included, a dome port) - Monitor housing : 2'830.- CHF - Options, on demand
Subspace Pictures
9, Rue Boissonnas - 1227 Acacias / Geneva - Switzerland)
Phone: +41 22 / 823 14 60 - email: subspace@vtx.ch - Website : www.subspace.ch

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Sounds interesting.

20 years of experience and the Swiss conception

What is the 'Swiss conception'?

if necessary we can add a tube in front of the housing to fit long lenses.

Do you mean for topside work in adverse environmental conditions?

Rudi, will upload the file tomorrow, a trimmed R3D with all look sliders zeroed, let me know if there is anything that can be done. Unfortunately, it was shot into the sun, but that's where Gerry came at me from. Old fighter pilot technique, clever beasts those sharks ;-).

Pawel, if you'd like to have a crack at it as well, I think that would be illuminating. Time permitting, and the inclination to do so of course, please send me your FTP details.

Cheers all.

 

[Matt Ferraro]

Tom,
Good questions. Pascal said to forgive his English, which I think is pretty good, but there are somethings that may get garbled in the translation. As for 'Swiss conception' maybe he means the Swiss way of doing things (ie their legendary craftsmanship and engineering) and the 'tube' is a port extender for physically longer lenses. In any case that is all conjecture on my part.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

What is the 'Swiss conception'?

are we discussing the birds and the bees now? :blush: sorry, couldn't resist

Jon, more regarding your whale R3D clip that Rudi also picked up on, is the extremely low contrast spanning maybe a couple of stops only. There can be many reasons for that, most notably lighting conditions, proximity to the subject and water particles, but also optics could play a significant role. Some ways of improving contrast other than direction of lighting and proximity is to use sun shade, mattes and optimise your port for the viewing angle of the lens.

Not much you can do in post other than apply more aggressive S curve.

edit: I guess this is when we would need LDR (Low Dynamic Range) mode that I was asking for and no one could understand why...

 

[Michael Hastings]

Re: subspace

11" diameter and 21.6 inches long seems pretty big for an epic housing.... by comparison AquaVideo is 9" diameter (with flats on most of the housing that reduce it further) and 17.7" long.

May not seem like that much, but since volume increases as a square of the radius it makes a big difference in displacement 11" tube 21.6" long displaces 75 pounds versus about 40 pounds for the 9" 17.7" long.

(Displacement is how much the housing/camera package will have to weight to be neutrally buoyant.)

BTW On our housing the depth rating is primarily due to the ports/endplates. With the proper ports there would be no problem taking the AL version to 200 meters. Probably the same for PVC version (1/2" wall cylinder is pretty pressure resistant and 200 meters is only 290 PSI) but I would want to do a test or two to make sure there aren't any odd stress points.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

New Epic X price now 19K. Thoughts from the Bubble Blowers?

 

[Ross Isaacs]

AWESOMENESS!!!

 

[Michael Maes]

I am in SHOCK! I just bought an entire setup at RED, not even two months ago.
And now they just make it so I have paid $15,500 too much?
This is crazy! This is respectless to their customers.
OK, this is great for new orders but... keep in mind: whomever has an Epic brain and wants to sell, just saw the price drop by $15,500...
I just cancelled an additional order at RED and am seriously thinking about selling the whole rig and turn to something else.
I don't like to work with companies that can't be trusted.
The fact that RED didn't dare to announce this themselves proves that they know they are so wrong (commercially towards their existing customers).
They should have contacted all recent orders/customers before the change and work something out.
That would have been the way to do it.
I have sent them a letter and reclaim my loss. I am curious what their answer will be, apart from their eloquent "blah blah"....

"heh heh"

:-(

PS: Sorry for my bad English.... being heated makes it more difficult to write it correctly when you are a non native... ;-)

 

[Tom Hamilton]

I've given this a lot of quality noggin time. Initially, I was really annoyed that the new camera price had dropped by 40%, that's a pretty healthy whack. I imagine big operators like Jackson and Cameron who own hundreds of these things, having seen the value of their tech inventory suddenly drop by millions, might be concerned. At least their accounting hobbits might be.

For most working pros though, and this is a professional camera after all, the initial investment has been returned many times over, so a mere 15K likely doesn't represent a huge chunk in the grand scheme of things. This was bound to hit some very specific folks right smack in the niche-hole, I am one of them. For many others, this is a huge boon.

After hearing the various comments and opinions, I guess the biggest plus in all of this, as was pointed out to me today, is the fact that Jim could have put an Epic Z out there, or something like that, obsoleting all of our X cameras in one fell stroke. That didn't happen, thankfully we still have the current, fully upgradeable model.

Up to us to make it pay.

Food for thought; the Red One was 'Obsolescence Obsolete'. Jim retired that camera today.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

I imagine big operators like Jackson and Cameron who own hundreds of these things, having seen the value of their tech inventory suddenly drop by millions, might be concerned. Food for thought; the Red One was 'Obsolescence Obsolete'. Jim retired that camera today.

Jackson and Cameron use those cameras for their own projects, and one single one of those can pay off for all of the cameras, as it already has been the case. I assume the last thing on their minds is how many millions they lost. They lost nothing, they own a ton of cameras free and clear that will make them money for years to come. Furthermore, when Jim Cameron's Epics get rented at the CPG (Cameron Pace Group) they get rented as part of 3D packages most of the time and those packages comprise a whole array of things, from lights, lenses, custom 3D rigs, ingest, output, broadcast switchers, boards, satellite dishes , the expert operators that know how to use and make the best out of that complex digital ecosystem, down to the trucks that house and drive each package, where the cameras suddenly loosing 40% in value means absolutely nothing. They don't have to, and they won't, drop a single penny from their prices because, quite frankly, their "competition" won't take any jobs away from them simply because they're using Sony F-55s or what have you. And I assume Peter Jackson is equally protected where camera prices fluctuations mean nothing to the whole service they offer.

And as for the R1, that is now, without argument, the best value in digital imaging bar none. 4.5K for $4K? That's a whole can of worms that just exploded. Housing manufacturers could make a killing if they were to offer cheap housings for the R1, its what I would do. How can I honestly recommend an EX-1, or an FS-100 or FS-700 instead of an R1 to all those who come to me asking for advice on what to buy? I already own two R1's and as soon as I can, I'm buying another 2-3 if they don't run out before.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

How much longer do you think they will support a discontinued camera?

 

[Ross Isaacs]

Assumptions are very dangerous, direct knowledge required. You can bet their accounting folks are not entirely happy with Jim's self-sustaining market maneuvers. JJ has taken a huge chance on this one, the jury is till out. The news is not all happy.



Accounting 101, I would respectfully beg to disagree. That they make millions on the front end does not obviate the amortization of their primary business tool. In this case, the Epic camera, suddenly devalued by 45%. I am now being told my $35K Epic is just another Chinese laptop, upgradeable, disposable, ASICs easily replaced, whatever, not worth the cheap-ass circuit board it was printed on. Wonder what Jackson's take on this is?


Rudi, buy as many $4000 R1's as you can, they will never become obsolete.

Do you really think the price drop has any affect on these producers bottoms line? I can only see dropping the price as being a good thing. It really comes down to productivity of the creative mind and how one uses these as their paint brush on a pallet of the imagination.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Yes, you are correct Ross, just venting. I'm better now. Back to work...