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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The finer points of RED Rentals

Stephen Williams: doesn't mean it's not illegal ;)
 
In regards to rental versus buying: a lot of people are going to want to rent rather than buy if they only plan on using the camera for one or two short productions. They also might rent if they need to get an occasional multiple-camera setup. Or, if their primary camera conks out and is in the shop.

But in any case, I'm not sure of how the rentals are going to work for the little guys because the official Red zoom lens isn't coming out at the same time as the body, and that would mean still-lenses for most of us... and would a renter be satisfied shooting with a breathing still lens? I'm not in a financial position to afford a non-Red cine lens. Well, actually, I can't afford a Red cine lens either but at least it's a step closer to my budget. So I'm not sure how I'd successfully rent out a full package. What kinds of other gear would they expect too? Lighting? Tripod? Follow-Focus? I'm curious what y'all think a package rental should include.
 
It used to be, (back when) that rental houses based daily rental fees at one percent of purchase price of a given piece of equipment. I think $500.00 a day (34 days to recoup) is a bit stiff.
 
Lowkus said:
What kinds of other gear would they expect too? Lighting? Tripod? Follow-Focus? I'm curious what y'all think a package rental should include.
Click to expand...

Lowkus, there are so many ways to package the Red that one kit is certainly not going to fit everyones needs. Below will give you an indication of how our company would package the Red based on our experience with HD drama and digital features. Please bear in mind that NZ budgets are miniscule compared to US/UK and our crew sizes are smaller. We are use to doing more with less and the size of our industry means that we often can't support some of the more high end accessories, Cine-tal monitors etc.

Red One CINE-STYLE Production Kit
Red One Camera
RED Viewfinder
RED LCD
RED Cage
Red Rails
Red Drive x3
Aja Down Converter
4-6x Lithium 90Wh Ion V-lock batteries and charger
AC-DC 12 volt Power Supply
Sachtler Video fluid head (Dop's choice 18, 20, 25, 60)
Ronford Tall legs & spreader
150mm Low legs
150mm Hi Hat
Red Zoom 18-85mm (Subject to availability or Angenieux-Cooke etc)
Red Prime Set (Subject to availability or Zeiss-Cooke etc)
Preston MicroForce digital zoom controller
Arri MB18 Matte Box
Filter package (Dop's choice)
Arri FF3 follow focus rig
Panasonic 17" HD-SDI LCD monitor with built in waveform.

Once again I'm not suggesting this fits everyones needs but works with our existing inventory to provide an entry level cine production kit.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Stephen,

With the Red so well priced, I don't think many people will want to rent if the price for a body only, is more than £100 a day. If a camera can be bought for the rental cost covered by say 3 jobs, one would be foolish to rent.

Stephen
Click to expand...

The problem is it has to sit within the market at a price point that's not just determined by the cost of the camera, but the cost of "similar" products around it. And at a £100 p/d, it'd have to hire for about three months to break even (my jobs last days)! I don't think pricing the body at the same rental rate as a Z1 is quite appropriate given the differences in cost anyway.

I was thinking of cost of a complete package btw - and as Red will have 35 rather than s16 lenses that would actually push the rate up (A Cooke 18-100 from Arri is £260 p/d).
 
Stephen Webb said:
The problem is it has to sit within the market at a price point that's not just determined by the cost of the camera, but the cost of "similar" products around it. And at a £100 p/d, it'd have to hire for about three months to break even (my jobs last days)! I don't think pricing the body at the same rental rate as a Z1 is quite appropriate given the differences in cost anyway.

I was thinking of cost of a complete package btw - and as Red will have 35 rather than s16 lenses that would actually push the rate up (A Cooke 18-100 from Arri is £260 p/d).
Click to expand...

Hi Stephen,

The Z1 has a life of 3 years and has a lens, recording system & batteries included. The Red should have a life of 10-25 years!

The Red for £100 does not have an eyepiece included! A high end Red camera package with Cooke S4 lenses will rent for £1000+ per day no question.

Stephen
 
Rocketeer said:
Lowkus, there are so many ways to package the Red that one kit is certainly not going to fit everyones needs. Below will give you an indication of how our company would package the Red based on our experience with HD drama and digital features. Please bear in mind that NZ budgets are miniscule compared to US/UK and our crew sizes are smaller. We are use to doing more with less and the size of our industry means that we often can't support some of the more high end accessories, Cine-tal monitors etc.

Red One CINE-STYLE Production Kit
Red One Camera
RED Viewfinder
RED LCD
RED Cage
Red Rails
Red Drive x3
Aja Down Converter
4-6x Lithium 90Wh Ion V-lock batteries and charger
AC-DC 12 volt Power Supply
Sachtler Video fluid head (Dop's choice 18, 20, 25, 60)
Ronford Tall legs & spreader
150mm Low legs
150mm Hi Hat
Red Zoom 18-85mm (Subject to availability or Angenieux-Cooke etc)
Red Prime Set (Subject to availability or Zeiss-Cooke etc)
Preston MicroForce digital zoom controller
Arri MB18 Matte Box
Filter package (Dop's choice)
Arri FF3 follow focus rig
Panasonic 17" HD-SDI LCD monitor with built in waveform.

Once again I'm not suggesting this fits everyones needs but works with our existing inventory to provide an entry level cine production kit.
Click to expand...


Hi,

That's what I call (With Cooke S4's) a hi end rental package.

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

That's what I call (With Cooke S4's) a hi end rental package.

Stephen
Click to expand...

The kit listed is particular to our client base, that is the minimum they would expect to work with. Hopefully if the Red is everything promised, we'll be able to add a set of Cookes to our inventory.

Others may pitch below that level and others above.

Red One Nikon CINE-STYLE Production Kit
Red One Camera with Nikon mount
RED Viewfinder
RED LCD
RED Cage
Red Rails
Red Drive x3 ( one on the camera, one on standby, one being offloaded)
4x Lithium 90wh Ion V-lock batteries and charger
AC-DC 12 volt Power Supply
Sachtler Video fluid head (18 or Cartoni-O'Connor equivalent)
Tall legs & spreader
Low legs
Hi Hat
Nikon Zoom
Nikon Prime Set
Matte Box
Red Rock Micro Follow Focus
 
Yeah, I'm not sure the 1% of the camera purchase price works. I think with this particular camera (again, assuming that it lives up to expectations, which I expect it will) the "correct" rate will be determined by:

1. Market. How many Red's available in that demographic.
2. Package. Camera only? Full package with all the accessories? Storage?
3. Operator included?

In a competitive market, some people may have to drop their rental prices way down in order to compete. In other markets, they may be one of the only games in town, and might be able to charge a premium.

I think some good points have been raised recently about rental procedures, expectations, etc. It's very helpful information. For those who might be considering the rental business for the first time, it might help prevent mistakes. So kudos to those who have chimed in on this and provided some great insight.

Steve
 
I'm trying to market a package to student filmmakers and people with much less money for short films. I think the availability of this camera is going to open up to people who used to be shooting s16mm.

We're planning on offering

RED One body
Nikon F-mount
Set Nikon Zooms, f2.8 full range
Red Rails
Redrock Follow Focus
Hood
2x Mags
Tripod (Still looking)
MacPro with REDCine (specs permitting)

Plus me, the operator, to keep the insurance premium lower.

This will give them a HD or 2k end product, way better quality than if they shot film and got a crappy one-light SD transfer, and way cheeper than the HD best-light transfer. Plus we all remember taking 2 jobs in filmschool to afford 1000ft of film and not being able to shoot enough footage to finish the narrative properly. It blew.
 
stevesherrick said:
Yeah, I'm not sure the 1% of the camera purchase price works...
Click to expand...

Sorry, Chuck.

You are correct, Steve - The old 1% - (sometimes 2 or 3%) rule still only holds water with the purchase of equipment that isn't considered new technology - Tungsten Fixtures, 575W - 18K HMIs, Grip and the like. The average small to medium rental companies just can't afford a lower rate of return on sometimes monumental investments in new technology.

I think the package prices, like almost every piece of equipment in the industry, are going to be determined by 2 or 3 of the bigger LA and NY rental houses. Traditionally, the bigger houses are the first ones with the gear, set the number then the rest of the houses will follow suit immediately - big and small.... hence the near consistency of equipment rental costs from coast to coast in almost every rental house.

I've been on the rental side for the better part of my career (17+ years) in different sized shops in different sized markets and each house follows the others pricing, sometimes nationwide; While there isn't necessarily collusion to fix prices, rates are discussed amongst all of us.

However - competitive pricing in the rental industry for most houses is based on the discount provided to the rental customer - 10% - 40% off the standard published day rental price- and producers will push one house against the other until someone "Names that Tune" and gets the show- it's really rather ugly sometimes.

Personally, I hope we all demand a handsome rate for a new piece of equipment that is destined to change the way this tired old game gets played.

The body alone deserves to be a more expensive rental than a F-900 or Varicam based on image quality and format flexibility - but some are correct, based on acquisition cost, it probably won't command $1500 - $2000 a day... I expect our pricing to land somewhere between $600 -$800 a day, body only. Pricing it lower, in my mind, is just undercutting the market early to try to get ahead of the curve - big mistake for all of us.

If anyone is serious about getting into straight rentals- give me a shout and I'll give you a bunch of reasons not to :)
 
I am sure, that all of you renting out their red´s need to have a long breath. I have the impression that there are some guys with no experience in the rental business and I can tell you that it will take some month to get in on the market and you will need some money to complete your system.
every customer wants to have a complete rental, so they are not interested to get the camera in south of the city, collecting lenses in the north and all other stuff like batteries, tripods in the east.
 
Thats the very reason I posted this in the first place, to see what is involved in the whole rental process. Yes, sounds complicated which is why I will just be offering my cam for wet environment applications, preferably with me as the operator at a slight premium.

I hope others who were also as 'in the dark' as I was with regards to the whole approach to camera renting and the considerations to take have, as I have, learned from the incredible knowledge of individuals on this site.

Cheers,
Mark.
 
I work for a rental business and it's not for the faint of heart.
First off you MUST get your gear insured and that costs. The insurance that covers your gear almost certainly will not cover it when you rent it out. We pay roughly 10% of the value of the gear in premiums. If you don't rent something out a lot that makes it hard to make a dollar on the rental.

You really must have everything the clients might need. Someones said this before and I can only back that up. No one will run around town to rent bits from here and there...and then return all that stuff, making certain it goes back to the right place.

You need facilities to test the gear too, particularly with high end kit like RED and you need to be able to test the lenses. No one is going to admit they've knocked a lens out of alignment and you don't want to find out it's bung when the next user has his shoot ruined by it or a dead pixel or whatever. All the gear to do this, the space and the trained people to use it cost money.

And most importantly. Be aware there are organised crime rings out there targetting camera rental businesses. Trust no one, check bona fides to the nth degree and even if you've rented gear to them before still don't trust the buggers. One scam down here they created a legit looking business, rented a bit here and there and then rented a hell of a lot and loaded the whole lot into containers and sent it OS, never to be seen again. Well no, not quite, it's been seen still with the rental companies logos on it doing work in the middle east. Forget getting help from Interpol!

Certainly one thing RED and/or this site could address is having a register of stolen REDs.
Adding anything that makes it impossible to rebadge / de-indentify a RED would also be a help, heck even a GPS transponder, a hardware key to make it work, anything. Even a tag in the metadata that identifies the serial number of the camera that the recording was made from would be a help.

Also accept only payment by credit card, forget cash. CCs mean you can keep charging a rental fee until the card is cancelled or maxed out. If your camera gets nicked this can ease the pain a little.
 
cool your avatar robroy..
 
RobRoySyd said:
I work for a rental business and it's not for the faint of heart....
Click to expand...

I've heard a lot of wisdom like this. Thats why I'm sticking with being an "owner/op", rather than strictly rental, even if my clients really only need to rent it. Id rather be standing next to the AC as a "technician" than not be there at all. I figure it'll protect me from the worst of the worst, and it should give me a break on the insurance.
 
... as far as I can see it

... as far as I can see it

Trust must be earned. Rental biz doesn't really give you an opportunity to establish trust. If you have a large operation then the losses from your dealings with those unworthy of trust are an annoying cost of doing business. For an independent with basically one full kit the risk / reward ratio is tough.

My plan is that I will always go out with the rig but my participation will be scalable, to wit:

1) I show up with the camera (and support van with computers, monitors, etc) and help with the set-up, spend the rest of the day making copies/dailies/recycling mags and supporting the camera crew as needed with technical info on the camera, probably also manage video village. Basically DIT plus camera package.

2) I bring the camera (and van) and operate it (or DoP or AC). Supervise data management as needed. Can also fill out the camera crew as requested.
 
Hi Blair S.P.
The van idea is good and essential for a film shot on location.
Road movie, interstate project. You could also roadcase and fly the
processing computer, set up in a hotel room and produce
dailies/backups from the days shoot at night.
Processing in the van may be a problem if the crew are constantly
on the move, a 2nd camera vehicle may be required.
_________________________________________
happy shootin Mezmo
 
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