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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The finer points of RED Rentals

price-fixing is illegal and this would be considered it. Besides I would not worry about competition that have incedibly low prices. The demand will hopefully be high enough that more than 5 people will want cameras from indierentals. people will have to get it from other places and will be willing to pay the appreciated value of the camera. Hopefully for renties this will be a playstation 3 senario.
 
Martin said:
Irony Stephen?

M
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Martin,

Betacam SP, Digital Betacam & (HD CAM almost) cameras have had a useful life of about 10 years. Don't you think its reasonable to assume Red will do better than that?

Stephen
 
Just my opinion . . .

IMHO, $500/day is too low (I get $450/day for my standard-def DSR450). RED should rent for NO LESS than for what a Varicam or HDW-F900 rents for a day--hopefully MORE. This is not "price fixing." This is a business model. We all invested in a dream, and had enough confidence in Jim's vision to put a $1,000 on our credit cards, even though a working prototype was still many months away. Those earliest in the pipeline should reap the most reward (they'll receive their RED camera months before non-reservation holders), because they took the most risk and had the most faith in RED, and in Jim's vision, early on. And remember, this pipeline could be quite long, so an early reservation means that you had the insight to see its potential--this, in and of itself, has INHERENT COMMERCIAL VALUE, and it's your right to be compensated for it! Those who didn't (I'm speaking of rental houses, and established DPs and shooters--NOT those of us who simply couldn't afford it), will have to pay what the market will bear.

Also, the rental rate for RED should have no bearing on its cost--it's irrelevant that RED cost only a fraction of those other cameras. RED should rent for what it can do--the things that no other camera on the market can do. So what if one rental company rents for $500/day? Have any of you ever dealt with low-ball rental clients? They're a NIGHTF----INGMARE! Preserve the price structure, retain only high quality clients, and reap the rewards for having the insight and wisdom to out-think the market and the industry. When RED starts shipping, and they become the most sought-after acquisition device on every stage in Hollywood, you'll thank me.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Betacam SP, Digital Betacam & (HD CAM almost) cameras have had a useful life of about 10 years. Don't you think its reasonable to assume Red will do better than that?
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Are you talking individual cameras or formats? I would be very impressed if a first generation RedOne camera had a rental life of 10 - 25 years, but I am certainly not complaining if it does. My suspicion is that technology will overtake it though before then, however modular and expandable it is. I just can't imagine that anyone considering rental is going to risk using those kind of time scales when working out the amortization of a bit of hi tech kit like this, even if hindsight proves them overly cautious.

The other significant factor is that the figures being discussed here relate to rental in the first year of the RedOne, when there may well be a lack of supply. There are too many unknowns at this stage to make any kind of objective predictions about demand, especially since I changed to a fine meshed tea strainer! It could well be that the market will stand some premium pricing at this stage though. I think this is why a lot of people are scratching their heads trying to decide what is a good price point. It isn't a straight forward proposition and you can't necessarily extrapolate a price from the current rental market... at least not yet.

Just my thoughts.

M
 
Ralph Oshiro said:
Just my opinion . . .

IMHO, $500/day is too low. RED should rent for NO LESS than for what a Varicam or HDW-F900 rents for a day--hopefully MORE. This is not "price fixing." This is a business model. We all invested in a dream, and had enough confidence in Jim's vision to put a $1,000 on our credit cards, even though a working prototype was still many months away. Those earliest in the pipeline should reap the most reward (they'll receive their RED camera months before non-reservation holders), because they took the most risk and had the most faith in RED, and in Jim's vision, early on. And remember, this pipeline could be quite long, so an early reservation means that you had the insight to see its potential--this, in and of itself, has INHERENT COMMERCIAL VALUE, and it's your right to be compensated for it! Those who didn't (I'm speaking of rental houses, and established DPs and shooters--NOT those of us who simply couldn't afford it), will have to pay what the market will bear.

Also, the rental rate for RED should have no bearing on its cost--it's irrelevant that RED cost only a fraction of those other cameras. RED should rent for what it can do--the things that no other camera on the market can do. So what if one rental company rents for $500/day? Have any of you ever dealt with low-ball rental clients? They're a NIGHTF----INGMARE! Preserve the price structure, retain only high quality clients, and reap the rewards for having the insight and wisdom to out-think the market and the industry. When RED starts shipping, and they become the most sought-after acquisition device on every stage in Hollywood, you'll thank me later.
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I am not sure if I agree there is a deserved rental price based on the confidence of reservation holders or how wonderful the camera is, any more than there is a fair rental price based on the cost of the kit, but I do agree that it should be what the market will bear, that is how capitalism works. If there are too many people renting out the price will be low, if there are too few the price will be high.

M
 
Martin said:
I am not sure if I agree there is a deserved rental price based on the confidence of reservation holders or how wonderful the camera is . . .
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I just thought $500/day was bit low, and I didn't want to encourage people to begin thinking they had to low-ball their rental rates just to make their Visa payments. I think in general, were all in agreement here.
 
Martin said:
It could well be that the market will stand some premium pricing at this stage though.
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Again, I think were all in general agreement here. But I wouldn't necessarily characterize a "Varicam" rate," or an "F900 rate" as a 'premium' for what RED has to offer. Since I often tend to be too generous when setting my own rental rates, I just want people to get their fair market value for their RED investment, and not be too "bashful" about charging a decent rate.
 
I have mentioned this before but I feel the camera will rent for what it will rent for. We will find out what people are willing to pay as RED productions/commercials/music vids begin to hit the market. I don't care what anyone says they plan to rent their cameras for if they say there cameras rent for $500 a day and they are rented all the time and they have production companies saying they will pay 1,500 a day for the camera rental will go up in price. If they can't get the camera off the shelves they will rent them for $250 a day.

It's simple supply and demand and I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. I know what price I wish to rent my camera for but I don't think anyone can judge what they will rent for until supply and demand is seen.
 
"the rental rate for RED should have no bearing on its cost--it's irrelevant that RED cost only a fraction of those other cameras"

why not give what RED gave us = RED outperforms a cineAlta and RED did NOT price their body above a cineAlta ... based on where RED would fit into the market RED should sell for 200K+ ? ... the only way we can all afford a RED is because it is priced in line with it's cost NOT where it would be priced according to other camera's ...

IMO 500 day is fair price for body only - now add on the extra's - recording media , EVF, batts , redrails, lens etc it all adds up ....
from my POV - at most i only need a 2nd camera maybe 10 weeks a year = 3day week = 1500 X 10 wks = 15,000 = daaaaaaa! why rent - just buy another one instead of paying rental .... if RED body is priced too high RENTERS will figure they can buy the body ( rent lens) for the project then sell it after production and put that $$ into post = savings ....
 
donatello said:
. . . why not give what RED gave us = RED outperforms a cineAlta and RED did NOT price their body above a cineAlta ... based on where RED would fit into the market RED should sell for 200K+ ?
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Well, that's certainly up to each individual owner's preferences, and yes . . . why not? RED is so revolutionary in both its capability and its pricing, that the creation of RED enables NEW business models . . .

Owning RED allows . . .

1. A DP trying to break into the business to offer his camera up for rental with the condition that he/she can tag along to DP the project. In this case, RED is his ticket "in." A combination of achieving a valued career goal, and some return on his investment, allows this owner to negotiate the "rental" rate quite liberally. The result: the producer gets a potentially below-market rate on a revolutionary image-making machine, and the owner gets his big break.

2. Similarly, a RED owner can add the condition of rental that he be hired as the DIT for the show. Again, the producer may achieve a negotiated rate on the "rental," and the owner begins (the eventually) lucrative career as a DIT. Another member here had already mentioned this strategy. Yet another door "in."

3. The true believers among us may offer below-market rates simply to evangelize the market about the superior benefits and capabilities of RED. A compelling marketing strategy for RED equity partners, but perhaps, not the most financially rewarding tactic for the owner. But he'll have that "good" feeling inside that will come from "turning" arrogant nay-sayers and old-school DPs who continue to dis the product.

4. And lastly, one can attempt to rent at HDCAM-esque market rates for comparable cameras (of which there are none), make his/her ROI and breakeven super-fast, and begin earning a comfortable profit from his investment so that he can buy more RED stuff!

I know you all know all this already, I just wanted to post that I have all of these reasons to buy RED too. I want to DP super-cool RED projects. I want to give it away to support the "revolution." I want to make a lot of money to buy more RED stuff. I want it all!
 
Finner said:
I have mentioned this before but I feel the camera will rent for what it will rent for. We will find out what people are willing to pay as RED productions/commercials/music vids begin to hit the market. I don't care what anyone says they plan to rent their cameras for if they say there cameras rent for $500 a day and they are rented all the time and they have production companies saying they will pay 1,500 a day for the camera rental will go up in price. If they can't get the camera off the shelves they will rent them for $250 a day.

It's simple supply and demand and I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. I know what price I wish to rent my camera for but I don't think anyone can judge what they will rent for until supply and demand is seen.
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Finner, I agree and share the same opinion.
 
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