The Fan 2.0 noise "motor"

[Christoffer Glans]

Doesn't putting a different fan other than v2 void warranty?

You mean use the v1.0 front fan together with a v2.0 top fan? Or a third party? I think Red has to answer that.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Dont think it´s to much of a problem to experiment with 3rd party fans because the camera will shut down before overheating or any such thing would happen. So I guess the easiest is to get a V1 fan and use that and if thats not good enough steal the connector from that fan / cut the cables and play around with what ever fan you can find that is more quite. As the fan grill and all that does not have much demand in terms of strength and such it is fairly easy to make up something new in a 3D printer or such. Making it so it sucks air from the sides instead of having the opening straight forward I think would be an improvement as the important sound to record is pretty much allways straight in front of the camera.

 

[Daniel Reed]

 

[Daniel Reed]

 

[Zeb B]

Weapon fixes any fan noise issues . . . correct?

 

[Daniel Reed]

Yup

Weapon fixes any fan noise issues . . . correct?

 

[Zeb B]

Yup

How and is it able to be Dragon retrofitted?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I rather not pay $15000 for a new improved fan. Why can't we just buy a Fan 3.0 that is improving on this? Or maybe Red could sell the Front fan v1.0 in store in order for us to get the best combination. I'm kinda surprised that this even got through R&D.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Just ask your BS rep for the 1.0 fan with the Dragon. They can send you a quote. I ended up getting one, but after extensive testing, went back to the 2.0 front fan. Though I agree Daniel, the buzz is annoying.

The Weapon fan obviously won't work in Dragon since the exhaust is now out of the back and the intake is on top.

 

[Zeb B]

The Weapon fan obviously won't work in Dragon since the exhaust is now out of the back and the intake is on top.

Exhaust fan is now mounted away from front facing mics? Genius!! ;-)

I've always wondered "why the fans?". Does any other camera have fans? Why not invent a passive cooling system using liquid or other brainy NASA approach. If fans, why not design super stealth blades / brushless motors that are dead silent? Fans on a gaming computer are one thing - on a movie camera where there are high gain mics very close by . . . seems like an engineering version of a punt to simple minded me

 

[Björn Benckert]

Exhaust fan is now mounted away from front facing mics? Genius!! ;-)

I've always wondered "why the fans?". Does any other camera have fans? Why not invent a passive cooling system using liquid or other brainy NASA approach. If fans, why not design super stealth blades / brushless motors that are dead silent? Fans on a gaming computer are one thing - on a movie camera where there are high gain mics very close by . . . seems like an engineering version of a punt to simple minded me

I guess it´s depending what you use the camera for. Normal film production the mic is pretty much never seated on, or hooked up to the camera. Thats more of a TV, documentary, ENG camera thing to have and my guess is that making such camera was not really RED´s aim or priority. I think a big priority was to keep it small. A liquid cooling would need to be rather big and also it for sure adds weight and or if there is no fan taking the heat from the liquid there needs to be quite big liquid heat sink.

Then also I dont understand this discussion as with topfan and V1 front fan or even with V2 fan dragon is rather silent with the correct settings. then if you need to shoot a completely silent take with people talking centimeters from the lens or such then normally, how long are those takes and how often do you actually do such things? Then if it really needs to happen just turn off the fan or disconnect the front fan. Then the camera runs pretty much totally quiet and if it overheats it will only shut down. That in combo with a little cooling bag or such would as I see it work for the few times such takes are needed.

But maybe it´s just me but I only had sound issues ones in a very tight location with a super long dialog, where the fan started to kick in like 10 minutes into the takes.
and that was pre adaptive mode and topfan.

 

[Zeb B]

I guess it´s depending what you use the camera for. Normal film production the mic is pretty much never seated on, or hooked up to the camera. Thats more of a TV, documentary, ENG camera thing to have and my guess is that making such camera was not really RED´s aim or priority. I think a big priority was to keep it small. A liquid cooling would need to be rather big and also it for sure adds weight and or if there is no fan taking the heat from the liquid there needs to be quite big liquid heat sink.

Then also I dont understand this discussion as with topfan and V1 front fan or even with V2 fan dragon is rather silent with the correct settings. then if you need to shoot a completely silent take with people talking centimeters from the lens or such then normally, how long are those takes and how often do you actually do such things? Then if it really needs to happen just turn off the fan or disconnect the front fan. Then the camera runs pretty much totally quiet and if it overheats it will only shut down. That in combo with a little cooling bag or such would as I see it work for the few times such takes are needed.

But maybe it´s just me but I only had sound issues ones in a very tight location with a super long dialog, where the fan started to kick in like 10 minutes into the takes.
and that was pre adaptive mode and topfan.

Still wondering how all the other guys do it without a fan? I mean the tiny Hero4, GH4 and A7RII all shoot 4K internal. Imagining myself in a movie camera product design meeting I would ask the engineer: "Why the fan? It consumes energy and makes noise - two things that have no benefit on a movie camera". He says: "the sensor and chipset gets as hot as a BBQ". I say: "design a more efficient sensor and chipset".

To your point: if you're shooting no audio commercials or high budget features, with second system sound and/or ADR, then this is a non-issue. Just seems like Dragon, being Epic 2.0, might have had the Weapon rear facing fan design if indie/doc users were considered. It's a self evident design feature for those using near camera mics.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Still wondering how all the other guys do it without a fan? I mean the tiny Hero4, GH4 and A7RII all shoot 4K internal. Imagining myself in a movie camera product design meeting I would ask the engineer: "Why the fan? It consumes energy and makes noise - two things that have no benefit on a movie camera". He says: "the sensor and chipset gets as hot as a BBQ". I say: "design a more efficient sensor and chipset".

To your point: if you're shooting no audio commercials or high budget features, with second system sound and/or ADR, then this is a non-issue. Just seems like Dragon, being Epic 2.0, might have had the Weapon rear facing fan design if indie/doc users were considered. It's a self evident design feature for those using near camera mics.

You also have to consider, epic which is also the base for dragon was developed when? pre 2011 or something and nothing even close to it existed at that time. So a little humming noise from a fan possibly did not come across as a showstopper at that time. When I got our Epic M playback was not even enable yet, still I thought it was by far the best camera that I ever had laid my hands on and I actually though they would never fix playback in camera so I would have been happy with it without.

But then again, there is quite a few design errors on epic. The module module is just one of them so one can only imagine that there where more a priority to get the cameras out in the wild then test and do reversion before shipping started.

Now it´s also quite easy to understand that dragon and epic is now pretty much a closed chapter for RED. The current aim is weapon 8k or actually more likely whats to come out after weapon 8k, as that camera is allready pretty much made, or at least out on shots and so on.

But I´m supriced that no third party has jumped on this issue with the front fan. As it´s such a easy bit to replace and make a mod for. It´s nothing but a plastic grill and a little fan that connects to two wires and as mentioned here there is quite a few fans available to choose from at allibaba ans such sites.

 

[Daniel Reed]

A 15,000 RPM fan in a camera may have been an overly zealous design mistake...

A 15,000 RPM fan in a camera may have been an overly zealous design mistake...

Anyone recognize and are 100% sure of the connector type on red supplied front fans?

Call me crazy, but the first round of epic dragons w/ 2.0 fans didn't sound this way to me.

I guess Delta changed a resitor/part supplier or inplemented a design tweak somewhere since RED started using them

Or maybe my hearing got better... either way, there are other quieter 4-wire fans by different makers for the same form factor...

... but most come w/ bare wires so you'll need to get crafty.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Bjorn, the high pitch 2.0 front fan buzz while in quiet mode gets picked up off reflective surfaces even w/in a boomed circle of silence 12 feet away

 

[Daniel Reed]

Another work-around is if you use a big matte box - it blocks/muffles the forward buzz sound projection.

frankly, I'm inclined to blame Delta... i bet they changed the fan to better align it with marketing for a quieter high-speed fan. (Red is jut one of hundreds, if not thousands of vendors using their fans)

...AND epics rarely ever require high-speed fan air compression. (unless doing 6K overcrank in the desert sun)

 

[Daniel Reed]

Delta PFB0412EHN TP06 High-Speed 40mm x 28mm 4 wire fan

Delta PFB0412EHN TP06 High-Speed 40mm x 28mm 4 wire fan

The official white paper for the 2008 design for the Delta Fan used in the Front Fan 2.0 upgrade:
http://partner.delta-corp.com/Products/FANUploads/Specification/PFB0412EHN-TP06.pdf

on paper it looks impressive for a server farm...

...but rarely would I need/want a 60db 16,000 RPM Fan running ANYWHERE w/ sync sound...

...generally under 30db is consider quiet and every 3 db is double the sound intensity level.

Sound Double or twice the power = factor 2 = 3dB more calculated power level (sound intensity level).

 

[Zeb B]

If you can't reduce energy waste at the chip level, (heat), why not just design your own whisper quite fan system that is mated perfectly for the Epic body? Off the shelf server fans are notoriously loud since that is not a design criteria because who sits next to a server rack all day . . . with a mic recording the subtle nuances of dialog? ;-)

Bit late now talking about this since the Dragon body design is obsolete and soon to be EOL for updates / upgrades etc.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Truly; however, I intend to continue using an epic dragon in the now and forseeable future.

AND as long as Epics exist in production...
Red may want to consider switching fan vendors if possible.

I've located two fans of similiar spec and form w/ max dbs rated ~33% and ~75% lower then the Delta.

BUT w/ some losses of CFM...
Delta @ 25cfm, other candidates are 23 and 18 cfm respectively.

This is all too Academic and above my pay grade.
I'll just stick to the 1.0 fan - I've never had a problem w/ them on any DSMC model

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Would be nice if someone from Red could comment on all of these comments. There's a real issue here and the solution is not to get weapon when we just want a quieter front fan.