The Cure for Scarlet Fever

[John Nguyen]

PARAPHRASE... read through the October 30 announcements . has to be one like that almost every 2 pages. uke:

The majority of people asking about the Scarlet release date have been pretty cordial in my opinion. Ofcourse you have the ones who were being rude about it, but few of them were ever as aggressive as how this thread was started off with.

If that is a quote you've paraphrased then I wouldn't go about saying its the most pathetic thing you've ever read. Take Eddy's post as representative of what's going on and why there were a lot of disappointed people on this board. I'm pretty sure those 7000+ viewers on Oct 30th were there mostly for the Scarlet and not the Epic.

The Scarlet fixed is aimed at the low-end prosumer user (where I would be). At this level things are tough, and for my small film crew and I the biggest problem is budget. We've hit a level where yes, our camera cannot realistically pull off the cinematic techniques that we are capable of and thus are in need of a more capable camera. So, we need a new camera and our current camera is depreciating. You can see how real of a problem this is for people like us, and discounting the people who are asking for ANY information on Scarlet availability as whiners is just......well, let's just not do that, please?

 

[alex lemon]

hey alex....wow...just watched your underwater stuff...beautiful images on a consumer camcorder...great stuff

Hey thanks, Peter! I'm glad you liked it.

I'm a rank amateur at this stuff but really enjoying the learning curve. Looking forward to getting a RED underwater so that I can shoot in RAW as I've had a hard time with colors and white balance underwater with my admittedly technically limited gear.

 

[Peter Osinski]

for my next surf movie I want to pair surface water shots with some clear underwater shots of marine life

from the minimal research I've done it seems like certain blue and green filters will help get rid of the overall tint you get and give more natural colors

I'd look into that more because I barely know anything about it, just something I picked up from reading a bit.

 

[John Caballero]

I feel for you Scarlet Nation, I really do.

There is no Scarlet Nation because there is no Scarlet. One thing I have to say for myself is that I am not a Scarlet fanboy. If I was I would be cheering every time nothing happens. I said it from the beginning, the Scarlet will take a long, long, long, long, long time to be in any hands and ready to shoot anything. I said it from the start, it is not magic. And of course I have been right all along so far. If it is hard for the big guys with all their years of experience it will be extremely hard for anybody else, especially a start-up. I commend Red for the Red One, which is their only camera in existence at the moment. Great piece of equipment. As for Scarlet, we will keep waiting. At the moment I am with the GH1 Nation. I am typing with one hand and holding my GH 1 with the other. Its real and its here.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

Now, I'm not complaining about the release schedule or anything at all - I've been on REDUSER since it started (and DVXUser before that), so I understand the way RED works, and I fully expected there to be delays and I budgeted for price increases. So I'm not disappointed with the news at all (in fact, I can't believe that so many people are complaining while the camera has got so much better). But I think that your post only tells half the story.

It's very true that the story and many other aspects of a film (acting, sound effects, score, and so on) make a massive difference to the quality of a film, but you make it sound like the actual image means nothing. Does this mean therefore that CG and colour grading are useless and make no difference to a film?

I think a better way of putting it is like this - a camera is a tool, and a tool only makes better results in the hands of someone who can use it well. Think for a second what would happen if you gave Michelangelo a few blunt chisels to work with. Now, I'm sure that he could make a damn good sculpture with it, but given better quality, sharper chisels, he's going to be able to do better quality work. In the hands of a novice though, both the good tools and the bad tools will yield bad results. A better camera will not make you a better filmmaker. But somebody who knows how to handle a camera will be able to produce much better images with a Scarlet than other cameras.

Does this mean the film will be better? Maybe not - you have posted some good examples of films made with dodgy equipment that were very good. But for some films it may - do you think Baraka would be as amazing as it is shot on 16mm? Or would Avatar be as good shot on an XL2?

 

[Tim H.]

In response to all those tacky and pointless desperation posts about how RED somehow shattered people's dreams and business models by choosing to perfect their cameras before shipping and now they are going to kill themselves, or buy a Canon, Nikon, etc...

So you think this post is any better? Not only is this rude and unprofessional but it's personal. I would say they have more of a case to make about being dissapointed than you have a case for writing this.

Why not just make your points without the attacks. This place is so hostile and I just don't understand why. Seems people can't handle a different opinion than their own. Are you always right? I hope not because then you'll never learn anything new.

I agree that some posts are just over the line and some of this has been beaten to death but let people vent. Let them give their opinions and let Red decide on how valid they are.

The bottom line is that people have been very patient waiting for the Scarlet to materialize and it just hasn't. It was not them who imagined this little fireball in a 3K package. It was these very forums and the Red website that promised to change everything. So cut them some slack.

I'm not sure what your business model is but I'm sure there are several people here who were looking forward to buying the Scarlet because it fits their price point for the type of work they do. Don't think of just feature work and inspiring film makers but think of documentaries, weddings, industrial videos, made for tv stuff, etc. Many of those businesses are probably ready to replace their SD gear to get into the HD arena and would love to only have to buy one camera and have waited and waited for the Scarlet but have only found more delays. Not everyone has the endless money tree.

For me personally, I can wait because in the mean time I will shoot with what is there and upgrade or rent as needed based on the client. However, this doesn't prevent me from being sympathetic to others. The point that Red actually listens and is different than most other companies in this industry is the very reason why these people should be bitching. Red encouraged them to.

Now as far as these movies you listed, I agree for the most part. Content is very important. Way too many people get hung up on stats and tech fighting and it's just a silly waste of time. These people can't even light a scene correctly and they are worried about 3K, 5K resolution. Even though most of the stuff shot on the cameras won't even see a theater release. Think of all the crap movies out there shot on 35mm. No amount of gear would save them.

Where I don't agree is that the crap shooting on Blair Witch only worked because the very nature of the story help support the camera work. Try shooting an epic adventure or Discovery channel scenic travel show with cameras like this. They won't fly.

Anyway, no hard feelings just trying to remind everyone that it's ok for people to be upset and you should never assume you know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes.

 

[Fran Kuhn]

Please rent the following movies...

1. The STORY of Anvil- INCREDIBLE doc, shot on the shittiest beta cam footage I have seen since the 90's. The KILLER true story renders the footy irrelevant, shot on Scarlett would not have made this film one iota better.

2. 28 Days Later - Killer movie shot on DVX-100 (EDIT CANON XL-1) lets just say SD video shall we?. The style supported the format.

3. Rent the Blair Witch project. One of the poorest filmed movies of all time.
Again, the shitty footy, was incorporated into the story.

4. Clerks, crappy 16mm B&W footy. Dialogue that appealed to the masses made it easy to forgive how god awful that film looks.

What is the common denominator?

STORY RULES. NOT CAMERAS.

Hi Tim,

And then there's a film like The Room. Crappy story and crappy footage. And it's a cult hit! Go figure.:smile5:

-Fran

Bell & Howell Filmo #115270 Bullwinkle

 

[Steve Sherrick]

There is no Scarlet Nation because there is no Scarlet. One thing I have to say for myself is that I am not a Scarlet fanboy. If I was I would be cheering every time nothing happens. I said it from the beginning, the Scarlet will take a long, long, long, long, long time to be in any hands and ready to shoot anything. I said it from the start, it is not magic. And of course I have been right all along so far. If it is hard for the big guys with all their years of experience it will be extremely hard for anybody else, especially a start-up. I commend Red for the Red One, which is their only camera in existence at the moment. Great piece of equipment. As for Scarlet, we will keep waiting. At the moment I am with the GH1 Nation. I am typing with one hand and holding my GH 1 with the other. Its real and its here.

Hopefully, this was taken as an endearing term. There is quite a following when it comes to Scarlet, perhaps enough to occupy a small nation. I talk to filmmakers, event videographers, etc. who have been following in earnest since it was announced. Some are frustrated, some have taken the whole thing with a wait and see approach. But there are a lot of people who want this camera, and I truly do feel for them. I remember waiting anxiously for the R1, and as we all know that ran into some delays. I'd get excited, then I'd get disappointed. But once I got to know the guys at RED and understand the complexity of what they were trying to do, I started to have some perspective on it. So, my only advice to future Scarlet owners is to hang in there. The wait will be worth it, guaranteed. You will have a camera that will last you years. I'd even recommend getting loans for it if you have a good business plan in place. It will be a worthwhile investment, especially if you already have a business that is making money with less quality video. This will be an upgrade that should enhance your product.

I say try to keep an open mind until the 30th. If the news about Scarlet is really bad at that point, maybe some noise should be expected. Maybe it's not unreasonable for people to question the development cycle.(although, I would be surprised if there's really bad news). But for now, I see October 30th as Epic Day. November 30th will be Scarlet Day.

 

[Craig Ryan]

While I agree that we often get carried away when it comes to formats and quality, we also need to understand WHY those movies mentioned in the OP worked, and why many others don't. Some stories are better served with one format over another it seems, which is why a movie like 28 Days Later can be shot on DV; however, would anyone have enjoyed The Dark Knight as much if it was shot all on DV? Probably not. It was a good story, but DV would not have conveyed the emotions of that film at all.

Format should serve the story, so format isn't irrelevant even if the story is good enough. Of course, if a story is compelling and interests the audience, people will watch it; no question! But my point is, that in some cases, a better format would make that already good story THAT much better. Sometimes it won't, but sometimes it probably would. And THIS is the reason for the Scarlet craze. I'm sure there are many screenplays sitting on hard drives waiting to be told in a worthy format.

Of course, there's a whole other can of worms; production value. Production designer, art direction, sets, props, etc..

It's all apart of the equation in the end, you just have to make a decision of what is going to help tell the story the best way.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Of course, there's a whole other can of worms; production value. Production designer, art direction, sets, props, etc..

It's all apart of the equation in the end, you just have to make a decision of what is going to help tell the story the best way.

I'm glad you brought this up Craig. In my opinion, when you have a great story, script, director, actors, DP, sound, a great camera, etc the film can still fail with bad production design, art direction, costuming, etc. Certainly having a high quality recording device is a big piece of the puzzle, but I am still amazed by the really good detail people. The ones that add those extra layers of aesthetic quality, that combined with all of the other elements brings a movie to life and sets it apart from the mediocre films. The Dark Night had some really nice art direction, great sets, texture.

So, in my opinion if you work with a camera like Scarlet and you really want to up the production quality, it's working with really good detail people who will make your film shine, and amazingly some are able to do it on crazy low budgets and I'm always impressed when I see this. So, it's possible to have great looking movies at micro budget level, it just takes a lot of work and a lot of favors.

 

[John Caballero]

I see October 30th as Epic Day. November 30th will be Scarlet Day.

Fingers crossed. Lets be positive.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

May I add that the first Dogme film "The Celebration" was shot on Sony PC-7E Camera. Again a wonderfull dramatic story captured in SD. And Dogville was partly shot on a Sony DSR-PD150P for some scenes. Looks like Anthony Dod Mantle is kind of king of the SD-cam's.

 

[Joe G.]

Clerks had a story?

By the way, what are you shooting on, Tim?

 

[Jerrod Cordell]

And don't forget 28 Weeks Later used a Sony Z1U and Crank 2 used Canon XH-A1s. And don't forget the ever so popular Paranormal Activity.

I am waiting patiently for Scarlet, I just think it'd be cool to Beta test it. Let me dream in peace okay!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Cameras? Forget cameras! Back to Radio Plays!!! Great stories were told without any camera at all.

Which is my snarky way of saying cameras only don't matter if you don't care how your movie looks. I guess it's not much of a coincidence that none of the movies listed here ever excited me about film making. If I could only ever make dogma films I would quit and never look back. I would rather work in radio.

Evidently a large portion of audiences agree with me since I've never seen a Dogma film break a few million $ in the box office.

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

Well I think that the source material of many of the films has more to do with them not having a wide appeal more so than the quality of the images from the films.

I mean, 28 Days Later did great, and it was shot primarily on SD. But look at what it had, it had action, great actors, and zombies.

But it has the same visual "quality" as many Dogme films, primarily SD, with lots of natural light. While many Dogme films don't have a lot of superfluous action, and usually don't have many if any major actors.

If a film has a compelling subject matter, it can be shot with a prosumer cam, and still make it, "Paranormal Activity" is on the way to make 100 million, and it looks "worse" than several Dogme films.

Now, there is a reason we care about image quality, and why many of us are camera nerds. The camera isn't the most important part, but there is a reason we value it.

 

[Eddy Robinson]

I say try to keep an open mind until the 30th. If the news about Scarlet is really bad at that point, maybe some noise should be expected. Maybe it's not unreasonable for people to question the development cycle.(although, I would be surprised if there's really bad news). But for now, I see October 30th as Epic Day. November 30th will be Scarlet Day.

The point I wanted to make earlier relates to this: anyone reading ScarletUser or the Scarlet forums here on RedUser would have known people were expecting information about Scarlet on Ocotber 30th. If it was going to b mostly Epic day, then fine, but it would have been wise for someone connected with RED to point this out in advance.

'Scarlet people' are disappointed not because of the quality of the news, but the virtual absence of it, after feeling they were led to expect more detail. If someone was interested in the fixed-lens model, they may wonder in the back of their minds if Nov 30th will be 'Scarlet ff35 and s35 day - fixed lens info on Dec 30th!'. (Probably not; there is a photo of the fixed lens + sensor block in Recon right now, in fact.)

I hate posts of the form 'RED (or anyone) needs to do ...'. I certainly don't know what they need to do, only the engineers and business team know that. I can articulate what potential customers would like to see:

• ballpark estimates of cost and availability, eg $4-4,500; Q2 2010
• functional pictures rather than beauty shots; I am personally tired of 'ogle the render' and trying to guess what the connectors and buttons do.
• if there's a feature worthy of mention (eg 'touchscreen track focus') then define what it is. 10 pages of user posts amounting to 'What's track focus? whatever it is, sounds AWESOME!!' - not informative.
• pictures or video from the sensors (which many pointed out were promised for last months announcement). The more boring the better - exotic animals in front of black backgrounds are cool, but a simple shot of a landscape or kitchen or (gasp) a color chart is much easier to evaluate.
• Er...
• That's it.

Yes, I am suggesting that information releases be a little more...boring. The kind of boring that lets you make a straightforward business case to a producer: 'the camera body has connector X that I can attach cable Y to to drive the monitor; I can get a 25' cable for $49 from B&H that will definitely work. We will be able to shoot 14 minutes of footage per card, and we need two cards because it takes about 35 minutes to copy and verify the footage before reformatting, blah blah...'.

Producing at the story level is an exercise of imagination; at the actual production level it's an exercise in logistics and deliverables: can we get the shots we want, and what impact will the required equipment have on the bottom line? When I'm wearing my nasty producer hat (even if it's just looking in the mirror and asking my reflected self as a director or crew member) the one thing I can't buy into is 'everything changes...'. When I have to make a producer-type decision, I will compromise, even on my favorite things, because to do otherwise abuses the trust of investors, cast and crew. It's painful to say no, but not as painful as breaking the budget or the schedule.

I'm about ready to make a camera decision, and while I have numerous options, including the Red One, a Scarlet 3K is where I'd like to be - I can make do with less, but more would become burdensome in physical and workflow terms. I hope I can make that decision soon, because I really want to turn my attention to the things that go in front of the lens.

 

[Mark Holmes]

The majority of people asking about the Scarlet release date have been pretty cordial in my opinion. Ofcourse you have the ones who were being rude about it, but few of them were ever as aggressive as how this thread was started off with.

If that is a quote you've paraphrased then I wouldn't go about saying its the most pathetic thing you've ever read. Take Eddy's post as representative of what's going on and why there were a lot of disappointed people on this board. I'm pretty sure those 7000+ viewers on Oct 30th were there mostly for the Scarlet and not the Epic.

The Scarlet fixed is aimed at the low-end prosumer user (where I would be). At this level things are tough, and for my small film crew and I the biggest problem is budget. We've hit a level where yes, our camera cannot realistically pull off the cinematic techniques that we are capable of and thus are in need of a more capable camera. So, we need a new camera and our current camera is depreciating. You can see how real of a problem this is for people like us, and discounting the people who are asking for ANY information on Scarlet availability as whiners is just......well, let's just not do that, please?

Exactly.
Thanks, John.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The point I wanted to make earlier relates to this: anyone reading ScarletUser or the Scarlet forums here on RedUser would have known people were expecting information about Scarlet on Ocotber 30th. If it was going to b mostly Epic day, then fine, but it would have been wise for someone connected with RED to point this out in advance.

'Scarlet people' are disappointed not because of the quality of the news, but the virtual absence of it, after feeling they were led to expect more detail. If someone was interested in the fixed-lens model, they may wonder in the back of their minds if Nov 30th will be 'Scarlet ff35 and s35 day - fixed lens info on Dec 30th!'. (Probably not; there is a photo of the fixed lens + sensor block in Recon right now, in fact.)

I hate posts of the form 'RED (or anyone) needs to do ...'. I certainly don't know what they need to do, only the engineers and business team know that. I can articulate what potential customers would like to see:

• ballpark estimates of cost and availability, eg $4-4,500; Q2 2010
• functional pictures rather than beauty shots; I am personally tired of 'ogle the render' and trying to guess what the connectors and buttons do.
• if there's a feature worthy of mention (eg 'touchscreen track focus') then define what it is. 10 pages of user posts amounting to 'What's track focus? whatever it is, sounds AWESOME!!' - not informative.
• pictures or video from the sensors (which many pointed out were promised for last months announcement). The more boring the better - exotic animals in front of black backgrounds are cool, but a simple shot of a landscape or kitchen or (gasp) a color chart is much easier to evaluate.
• Er...
• That's it.

Yes, I am suggesting that information releases be a little more...boring. The kind of boring that lets you make a straightforward business case to a producer: 'the camera body has connector X that I can attach cable Y to to drive the monitor; I can get a 25' cable for $49 from B&H that will definitely work. We will be able to shoot 14 minutes of footage per card, and we need two cards because it takes about 35 minutes to copy and verify the footage before reformatting, blah blah...'.

Producing at the story level is an exercise of imagination; at the actual production level it's an exercise in logistics and deliverables: can we get the shots we want, and what impact will the required equipment have on the bottom line? When I'm wearing my nasty producer hat (even if it's just looking in the mirror and asking my reflected self as a director or crew member) the one thing I can't buy into is 'everything changes...'. When I have to make a producer-type decision, I will compromise, even on my favorite things, because to do otherwise abuses the trust of investors, cast and crew. It's painful to say no, but not as painful as breaking the budget or the schedule.

I'm about ready to make a camera decision, and while I have numerous options, including the Red One, a Scarlet 3K is where I'd like to be - I can make do with less, but more would become burdensome in physical and workflow terms. I hope I can make that decision soon, because I really want to turn my attention to the things that go in front of the lens.

A valid, and well thought out perspective. Here's the only counterpoint I'll add. When I was waiting for the R1, I did not plan any projects based around that camera. Until I had it in my hands, and had done extensive testing, I was not comfortable attaching it to any jobs. I believe it was about 3 months if I remember correctly before I put it on a real paying gig. If I was in the market for a Scarlet right now, I would have the same approach. It's only a real product when I have it in my hands and can test it. Once I'm comfortable with it, have figured out the workflow pipeline, and know it inside out, then it goes on a job/project.

So from a strictly business perspective here, if I'm a producer who's planning a project right at this moment in time, Scarlet is not an option. It never even factors into the equation. If the job is six months out, I am going with another camera in my plan because I need to choose something that I know is on the market and that I have tested or have used before. Or if someone else is shooting for me, it's a camera they are skilled with or can get up to speed on well before the project. If Scarlet were to become available before that project goes into production and there is enough time to get one and test it, then perhaps it replaces the original camera. But I can't and won't plan on using a camera that isn't available at the time of my preproduction, planning stage.

So, how RED goes about disseminating information regarding products they are working on has very little to do with how I go about business. Red One is available, it has been tested, and it produces fantastic images at a relatively affordable cost in comparison to other cameras of its type. Scarlet and Epic are cameras that I have a lot of interest in and can't wait to see what they become, but they don't factor into any business decisions yet.

$3K for 3K even if that were to be the released price for the camera, there's so much more that goes into this than just a camera that I really advise people to think the whole thing through. From every accessory you will need to actually shoot for a 10 hour day (Batteries, media, camera support, etc.) all the way through post production (do you have fast computers, fast storage, loads of RAM, good video cards, external monitoring, etc.). A Red One body for $17.5K does nothing. A RED One kit for $22K gets you going, but is very limiting in certain professional environments, and a $35K kit is where most have found to really be the true entry point for professional productions that require certain accessories, monitoring, etc.

That statement is not aimed at the professionals who are quite aware of the cost of doing business. Those folks are already prepared to pay more than what the basic camera system will cost. Others may not be as prepared, and will perhaps find ways to make due until they can get the other stuff that will help expand the kit. I would just recommend to have at least some contingency money available, just in case.

That's my take on the business side of it. We're all in different situations, different markets, and with different expectations of a company like RED. I understand that, and I think many people have made some valid points and have expressed their thoughts articulately. Others have baffled me a bit by their approach, but hey that's their prerogative.

 

[Eddy Robinson]

Totally agree Steve. The best advice I've seen was to pick a good existing product and shoot something great now which can be used to raise funds later when Scarlet is actually available.