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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Big Questions

Kirk.Attard said:
With all due respect Josh you are taking the point of affordable 4k wrong. To be honest I haven't seen your reel so I cannot judge but, If you are afraid of the 'regular' folk having 4k available and producing better images than you are then I'm afraid you are not working hard enough on the basics. I'm pretty sure you are very capable in your field and remember that high res cameras in the hands of non professionals will just produce very large and sharp non professional looking pictures.

The concept at Red with Scarlet and Epic is to push the little dedicated guys like me and many others like me I guess and give us that little extra nudge to leap forward in the Industry. Always if we work hard enough. Get the basics bad ( lighting, sound, composition, story ) and you wont break through not even with an IMAX camera. Red is amazing as it opens up all boundaries. Knowing that I can afford a camera Peter Jackson is using on the Hobbit inspires me. I am not saying I can produce the following HObbit. Far from It. Its just that if I make my homeweork right, hook up with the right team and work hard enough I can produce some truly stunning Images. At last the only limit is our imagination and skill not the equipment we afford to buy. And that is a truly encouraging thought.
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You kidding - I love the concept of affordable technology! Drop the price of the Epic to $1000 and ship me 2 tomorrow (with Canon mounts) and the other million to the 17 year olds! The Red rental houses and vested pros might not be down with that concept. Creatively I fear nothing and have full confidence in my abilities to produce captivating images even with the most basic technology. The questions are not personal - they are more of a macro view of where we as an industry are heading and are we focusing on the right targets and threats. Also, I am facinated by folks on this forum that really feel that, let's say, a Scarlet will be their creative life changing breakthrough moment. No idea what a Scarlet could do on Nov 3rd (ish) that a Red One could not do better today except be smaller and less expensive. The over the top hype could actually be a negative - it's just a tool.
 
Daniel Browning said:
"I think there is a world market for maybe five 5K productions." --Not really said by Thomas John Watson in 1943.

"480p ought to be enough for anybody." -- Not really said by Bill Gates in 1981

:D
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"Betamax will prevail because it is higher resolution" - Sony in 1975
 
Josh Beadle said:
Questions for us Red guys might be:

1. Is the market for 5K big enough to support a dedicated industry over the long term?
2. In a world dominated by YouTube, WalMart and MacDonald's - does the average American really care about the difference between 5K and 1080?
3. Can we assume if there is a large market for 5K that Canon, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Arri et all will continue to be all thumbs about planning and execution?
4. Is Apple's move from FCP 7 to FCP X a sign that the real money to be made is in mass market products (Scarlet and below) - not pro level complexity (Epic and above)?
5. What's next after the big sensor / raw file concept - which is a one time bump provided by moving standards from film to digital?
6. Who is the "black swan" for Red and their loyal followers? I'll bet it's not Arri but something off the radar now.

Careful my fellow Reds about being too smug about being the cool kids who know how to use the current complex technology - there is a bunch of FCP 7 pro editors who just got their years of experience and certifications blown up by Apple with the introduction of FCP X which, with Magic Bullet etc, will allow any 17 year old make films that Red Bull might buy. Democratization of technology and reduction of cost builds market share at the expense of exclusivity for existing users.

Point is: Dramatic change creates opportunity which can be unpredictable and cruel. Careful what you wish for - a $10K Scarlet would let a bunch of creative kids into our clubhouse.
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People want to get value for their money. If you are plucking down your hard-earned cash to watch a 90 minute movie, wouldn't you want to see it on a gorgeous 4k projector with excellent audio in an auditorium with comfortable seating and ambience for an immersive experience? Problem right now is that you have things projected at 2k, oftentimes the focus is off, the auditorium wasn't cleaned after the last showing the sound system is in dire need of maintenance, couple that with other patrons with a lack of etiquette who are talking on the phone, increased concession prices -- now you have the makings of an unhappy moviegoing experience. Many people these days derive more enjoyment from watching a movie from their own system that, while often smaller screen, is of the same or better quality then what they would experience at a common cinema. Bottom line -- people are willing to give up their cash, but give them some value for it. 4k+ is but one facet of that.

I wouldn't worry too much about the McDs and WalMart crew, I will hazard a guess and say that they are the same people that think that a CAM that they download off BT is good enough because they aren't paying for it anyways. Few and far between of these people will you get to part with any of their money to patronize your feature. SO that takes care of addressing the basement tier consumer. On the other hand, put a focus group of 10 people together. Go to RED Studios or anywhere else that has a proper 4k projector that you can have a screening and watch something from a R1 or Epic finished in 4k, then switch to the 2k projector (even properly in focus) and play the highest quality Blu-Ray you can get. When both are done, ask the 10 people which one they would pay to see. If you have been to RSH and seen 4k on their 40 foot screen, compared to 9/10 of the cinemas I've been to, it will blow your freakin' mind how much better it is. SO, if there is no other choices available but 1080/2k then of course people will consume what they can get, but still left wanting more.

Applying similar logic, some people go out and buy $400 garbage laptops because they are cheap but get the job done, while some people will spend $1000-$2500 on a higher quality one with more RAM, better graphics, an SSD drive etc.

In the end, the cream will rise to the top and the rest will falter. If that cream is a kid with a interesting script and a good eye, does it matter if he shoots it with the DSLR he borrowed from his buddy, has his friend from the AV department at school with a shotgun boom, some lavs and a field recorder, and edits it on his parent's iMac? NO. but it surely makes it all the better if they have affordable professional tools at their disposal. And clearly higher-res, better dynamic range, quality sound, lighting etc. are all important factors, but in the end content is king. There have been plenty of high-budget hollywood productions over the years that I wish they issued refunds for when I was done watching -- great production, crap content. So if that hypothetical kid can make movies better than I can, he should benefit and I will eventually need to find a new jobbie-job.

In the end, with democratization sure there will be a glut of hi-res garbage made along the way, but also it gives someone with great talent but little means a chance to break-in and create great content that can be seen by the masses based on merit of his work, not because he knew someone that knew someone else in hollywood that had a $200k camera.
 
Jon Thomasberg said:
People want to get value for their money. If you are plucking down your hard-earned cash to watch a 90 minute movie, wouldn't you want to see it on a gorgeous 4k projector with excellent audio in an auditorium with comfortable seating and ambience for an immersive experience? Problem right now is that you have things projected at 2k, oftentimes the focus is off, the auditorium wasn't cleaned after the last showing the sound system is in dire need of maintenance, couple that with other patrons with a lack of etiquette who are talking on the phone, increased concession prices -- now you have the makings of an unhappy moviegoing experience. Many people these days derive more enjoyment from watching a movie from their own system that, while often smaller screen, is of the same or better quality then what they would experience at a common cinema. Bottom line -- people are willing to give up their cash, but give them some value for it. 4k+ is but one facet of that.

I wouldn't worry too much about the McDs and WalMart crew, I will hazard a guess and say that they are the same people that think that a CAM that they download off BT is good enough because they aren't paying for it anyways. Few and far between of these people will you get to part with any of their money to patronize your feature. SO that takes care of addressing the basement tier consumer. On the other hand, put a focus group of 10 people together. Go to RED Studios or anywhere else that has a proper 4k projector that you can have a screening and watch something from a R1 or Epic finished in 4k, then switch to the 2k projector (even properly in focus) and play the highest quality Blu-Ray you can get. When both are done, ask the 10 people which one they would pay to see. If you have been to RSH and seen 4k on their 40 foot screen, compared to 9/10 of the cinemas I've been to, it will blow your freakin' mind how much better it is. SO, if there is no other choices available but 1080/2k then of course people will consume what they can get, but still left wanting more.

Applying similar logic, some people go out and buy $400 garbage laptops because they are cheap but get the job done, while some people will spend $1000-$2500 on a higher quality one with more RAM, better graphics, an SSD drive etc.

In the end, the cream will rise to the top and the rest will falter. If that cream is a kid with a interesting script and a good eye, does it matter if he shoots it with the DSLR he borrowed from his buddy, has his friend from the AV department at school with a shotgun boom, some lavs and a field recorder, and edits it on his parent's iMac? NO. but it surely makes it all the better if they have affordable professional tools at their disposal. And clearly higher-res, better dynamic range, quality sound, lighting etc. are all important factors, but in the end content is king. There have been plenty of high-budget hollywood productions over the years that I wish they issued refunds for when I was done watching -- great production, crap content. So if that hypothetical kid can make movies better than I can, he should benefit and I will eventually need to find a new jobbie-job.

In the end, with democratization sure there will be a glut of hi-res garbage made along the way, but also it gives someone with great talent but little means a chance to break-in and create great content that can be seen by the masses based on merit of his work, not because he knew someone that knew someone else in hollywood that had a $200k camera.
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Well stated! I have not gone to the movie theater for several years instead watching at home since I have a sweet man cave set-up. That is until the remodeled the local theater with leather seats, waiter service, full digital projection and online seat selection. The theater business model must change to meet the image quality of what's being produced but that has some real economic challenges. The push back on 3D is an example of this issue.
 
Patrick OMara said:
If you look through josh's history, he doesn't mind trolling to cause a stir. His profile also states that he is shy, yet likes fast cars and slow sex, which is very contradictory in itself.

Just saying, watch out before you get sucked in...
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Sorry, typo . . . was supposed to be "slow cars, fast sex"

Trolling? Please define. If you mean not a fawning product Fanboy (of any brand) and asking provoking questions or giving honest replies without hyperbole then guilty.
 
> Careful what you wish for - a $10K Scarlet would let a bunch of creative kids into our clubhouse.


What? the same way that a $18K RED let a bunch of kids into my play space?

Live with it, it's the way it is.

Anyway, real DP's don't sell their ability to use kit, they sell their ability to use their eyes!
 
geoffboyle said:
Yeah and shit floats.
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Words of a truly wise and experienced man. One I would seek out. If ever in San Diego let's have a beer - I know some cool places here and love honest company.
 
Art is subjective, if it's paid for or not, whether it's a mindless action flick, or mind bender, or a youtube video, or one of the most famous single painted frames.

If you resepect one form or the other or both, that's entirely up to yourself and your character as a human being.

Some people (even when paid to do an advertisement), put their entire being into it, and lend their knowledge and skill to excel the the creation of the final product.


If you think one form is better than the other, if you think that what you are doing is better than anyone else ever, if you think you are more important, well ... that's just your ego.
 
I'm pretty sure that Jim is on to something about the whole 5k aquisitions process. 4k scanning has been done for quite some time now. Sure, mostly it has been FX work using it but which movie does not use some kind of CGI by now? If only to get some nasty telephone poles out of the way. So as film stock is used less and less for various reasons, there is the need for 4K aquisition at the least. 5K? Well, supersampling has never done any harm. So the classical movie production/theatre release chain as a 4K standard makes totally sense.
I can see how soft a 2k digital image is on an IMAX screen. You might say that I, being interested in the topic, am more likely to look for these attributes. Yes, you are right. My mum would just marvel at the big picture (or maybe frown at it, she likes her movie theatres small and artsy) and not see the softness. But give it a few years, people getting used to the bigger screens and to there 1080p home theatres which is almost 2K (btw. I never understood why we say 4K, aka horizontal resolution, but 1080p aka vertical resolution - kind of misleading specially for consumers). And then they will see that the 2K picture in the theatres is no more detailed than at home. It might even start to look soft because it's almost the same picture resolution as at home stretched across more space of their field of view.
Maybe theatres will have embraced 4k projection by then fully. Just to seperate themselves from the home theatres. They will have to advertise, make the broader audience look for the difference and see what we (video-educated) can see already. If the theatres start to advertise 4K as a whole new experience the mass audience will pick up on the term.
And once the brand "4K" has established in people's heads you can start selling it to consumers for their hometheatre. Will be the same all over. First the nerds, then the luxury buyers and then it will become a mass product.
Assuming that theatres embrace 4k projection (which they already started) and that film stock will be replaced by 4K aquisition which DoP will have a huge influence on (which has started already with and because of RED) then the question is not IF but WHEN. HDTV took much longer than exspected (and still does in good old Europe). I for my part can say that I have no clue when it is going to happen. RED is pushing 4K by announcing a 4k projector. At the same time they tell us that they want to sell only professional products. I say if they want to speed up 4K as a consumer product they would have to sell consumer products. Which they very well know themselves, so I think it'll be exciting to see what's going to happen there.

Another problem: everything that was NOT shot on 35mm film stock or 4K will have to be uprezzed. That can be a turn-off for consumers. I still remember when I watched my DV videos for the first time on a CRT TV and found them looking sharper than on my TFT computer screen on which I edited them (which naturally had higher resolution).
 
Josh Beadle said:
Point is: Dramatic change creates opportunity which can be unpredictable and cruel. Careful what you wish for - a $10K Scarlet would let a bunch of creative kids into our clubhouse.
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This is exactly what the, "film look", and "film will never die", guys have been fighting. We have a dumbed down society, but the tools for communication have never been greater. Is there an opportunity for an independent Cinema in every city and town to screen indies? The product will be there, in truckloads, and maybe much of it will exceed Hollywood standards.
 
Eric Matthew said:
Que?! I own a 3 year old samsung 46in LCD and blurays look awesome via ps3.

I have been happier with my setup at home then with the pixelated digital projection down the street.
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46" is not decent sized! I'm now running a 135" projection screen for a more cinematic experience in the home.

Graeme
 
Actually, 576i (as in PAL) is more than enough for anyone! :-)

Graeme
 
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