The Big Mistake...

[Clint Johnson]

Talk to the studio CFOs and remind them of the thousands of hours of television from the seventies and eighties that sits on U-Matic and Betacam tape. They were able to rake in billions of dollars with VHS, DVD and and even some scratch with 480p downloads- but this is falling off as they can't legitimately re-offer these shows on HD Broadcast, Blu-Ray Discs or HD streaming.

Make sure they understand that shooting in 1080p today is like shooting 280i on U-Matic in the seventies. Sure it worked then and it will work today to give you some short term income but you are going to lose out on billions of dollars over the next few decades as 4K and higher replace HD as the emerging revenue stream.

Unless they are retiring in the next couple years and don't give a damn about hobbling the company a decade from now.

Also, make sure they understand that they can master in 5K for less than doing so in 1080p by migrating to the Epic when it comes time to replace their gear.

It is a beautiful thing when the money and the creative align.

 

[Andrew Huse]

I disagree about 3D. It sucks most of the time. It gives me a headache, is distracting, and kind of a gimmick. But that's my opinion.

I agree. 3D gives me vertigo. And I doubt the Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences would ever consider '3D' films to be "a must have" to win an Oscar. Classic style cinema will live forever IMO.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Larger format film has a certain feel to it, mostly due to the cleanliness of the picture through reduced grain size and appearance. Since we first started shooting in 4k (on S35 sized sensors) many people have said it evoked more of the feel of 65mm than 35mm.

Graeme

 

[Kris Anderson]

Jim, I've just completed an HD camera/switch upgrade for a live venue here in Sydney. Budget was tight and in the end we were able to buy 4 x Sony HDW-750P cameras for a fraction of the cost of a new 'studio' camera, and 'modify' them to become CCU controllable with a ProTech fiber adapter, which taps in to the remote port on the camera.

Do you see something like this as a possibility with RED cameras?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As to grain, I cen certainly see that.

OT
Still wonder how I managed to lose a frame from the first StarWars 70mm (I thought..) release here in Norway...

Had it pinned on my wall for years. Then started moving.

Very little grain in there.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Larger format film has a certain feel to it, mostly due to the cleanliness of the picture through reduced grain size and appearance. Since we first started shooting in 4k (on S35 sized sensors) many people have said it evoked more of the feel of 65mm than 35mm.

Graeme

Last year in L.A. some of my 4k Red nature footage (elephant seal close-ups, M sensor) was processed through Lowry to 65mm and then projected for demonstrations purposes. The studio executives in the audience let out sighs of approval. They knew it was acquired as Red 4k, but also asked "Nice contrast and clean look - what lens was used?". When told it was my 20 year old stock Canon FD 150-600 f5.6 zoom, using a Century PL mount only conversion, there was another sigh of wonder throughout the theater.

I learned that day to never underestimate the aesthetic potential of Red 4k - and now 5k to come.

That's all the details I can give out - but trust me, the above is a true story. I don't think this story will surprise you Graeme...

 

[M Most]

Talk to the studio CFOs and remind them of the thousands of hours of television from the seventies and eighties that sits on U-Matic and Betacam tape. They were able to rake in billions of dollars with VHS, DVD and and even some scratch with 480p downloads- but this is falling off as they can't legitimately re-offer these shows on HD Broadcast, Blu-Ray Discs or HD streaming....

Unless they are retiring in the next couple years and don't give a damn about hobbling the company a decade from now.

Theory: "Future proofing" is necessary because higher resolution current and future electronic formats obsolete anything that wasn't created in those formats and make it worthless.

Reality: Almost 15 years into the high definition age, many, many shows that exist only on standard definition continue to make a awful lot of money for their owners. Cases in point: Friends (played in SD hundreds of times a day on hundreds of outlets worldwide), Monty Python's Flying Circus (played on broadcast and sold on every video format available, including streaming), and countless dramas shot in 1.33 aspect ratio and never remastered. The fact is that good material is good material, and if it has quality, creative originality, and general appeal it will continue to survive and sell regardless of the format it was created in. Do I consider Monty Python future proof? You bet I do, not because it was on a particular video format, but because it was brilliant. Now, thats not to say that when one is shooting anything new, one should not shoot on the best available format at the time - of course they should. But despite the hyperbole, valuable material is not obsoleted by new formats if it's appeal is the result of anything other than what it looks like. And future proofing to me is about much more than that. To me, selling Red because the images are great, the workflow is refined and in place, the physical form factors of the new cameras are superb, and the pricing is beyond reasonable are all logical, realistic, and absolutely true arguments. Claiming that anything that isn't 4K or 5K is going to be worthless, regardless of its artistic, social, or historic merit is quite a bit more of a stretch given the reams of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Marcus Irvin]

1080 is a mistake I wish we could make in education.

1080 is a mistake I wish we could make in education.

This place is incredible!
...
Jannard = 21st Century Edison

Maybe Henry Ford too, considering the affordability. And let's hope the assembly line is as efficient.

I agree with everything you said, except Jannard is much more Tesla than Edison. Edison tried hundreds of thousands of experiments with hundreds of employees(including Tesla). In fact, Tesla fixed the final problems with DC power transmission and left when Edison refused to publicly recognize his work or reward him.
Tesla dreamed and then designed his visionary inventions in his head before building them with a very small team. Sounds familiar right? We are reading this today with Tesla's AC power, not Edison's DC.
Jannard never puts himself above us or his employees, even though he certainly could, based on his achievements in life. He listens to his customers and employees. Unlike Edison, he would never electrocute an elephant to attack one of his competitors. (Of course, nobody would now, but you get my point).
Even though Jannard's team have been working ridiculous hours for a long time now, none of them are leaving him or us. It seems like every RED name on this forum has been here since the early days. That alone tells you something about the man beyond his vision.

I'm a high school teacher so please forgive the unrequested history lesson, but I think what the RED team is doing is historically important for technology, communications and business method reasons. His results will be epic, but EPIC is just an amazing beginning.

This is a man who built a billion dollar business starting out of the trunk of his car. He has an eye for talent and team-building like few others. He has no massive ego consuming his character. He is a man of vision like Jobs or Tesla. I fully expect he and his RED team are going to amaze us many times.

Back on topic, 1080 is a mistake I wish our schools could make. We are drowning in low-end small-increment tech from preferred vendors eking out their profits with little consideration for effectiveness or declining public school budgets. We just barely have SD viewing in most of our classrooms and we are a top 3% suburban high school.
Texas "leaders" just dropped the 1 credit technology requirement for high school students and we lost half our computer classes. We will be lucky to get 1080p within 10 years. 4K education is just a pipe dream coming someday for a later generation.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I have a hard time thinking of 1080 at the whole as a mistake. Interrim comes to mind, though.

And SD is still very much a reality for TV in europe. The "HD" is 720 50p, converted from 1080 25p or 50i

There is a lot of infrastructure that needs to be modifyed or re-purposed for 4k TV.

And again I think a codec is the right place to start.

If the codec and the content is there, it will happen...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I disagree with you completely... 4K sports will absolutely happen and won't cost billions. It actually won't cost any more.

Jim

Finally! Congratulations Jim on whatever this development might be, whether selling rights or some cool gadgetry, or both which is most likely with my limited understanding of the broadcast infrastructure. We all saw 4k at data-rates lower than SD DVD... I suppose most couldn't wrap their head around that one.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

(...) We all saw 4k at data-rates lower than SD DVD... I suppose most couldn't wrap their head around that one.

My point exactly.

That's when one could

a) rush this out the door

or

b) get some major infrastructure onboard.

Given the option, my guess is b)...

 

[Raphael Varandas]

The same place Star Wars Episodes 2 and 3 are... locked at 1080p forever. The popularity of these films will make them endure, but it's not advisable to be shooting new films at 1080p.

Jim's vision for 4K has remained crystal clear and unwavering. In my mind, Jim is like a pitbull with a deathgrip on a car tire. Jim is the pitbull, and 4K display is the tire. No matter what forces try to shake him loose, he stays locked on 4K. Above all things, this is what I admire about Jim -- his clear vision, and but also his willingness to move mountains to make it happen.

Fantastic Analogy Tom, as always a great opinion.
Cheers matte.

 

[Raphael Varandas]

My point exactly.

That's when one could

a) rush this out the door

or

b) get some major infrastructure onboard.

Given the option, my guess is b)...

Secondly!

Was something about 14mb/s , right?

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I'd give a finger to be able to shoot 5k right now. Not the middle one though, I still need to show it to some people every now and then

 

[Benjamin Scot]

finishing in 4K

finishing in 4K

Jim,

Really happy for the company and what is being done by you guys pushing everyone forwards...

Just curious if you have heard any word on whether or not Spiderman, any of the other features being shot on EPIC are being finished in 4K?

Obviously the whole goal now is finish in 4k... and released in 4k to the cinemas that can actually show it.

It just seems like the producers a lot of times end up making the call to finish in 2K since its cheaper.

Regarding your original comment that a lot of old movies shot on film will be re-released in 4k, do you think that newer movies finished in 2k will be hurt since most likely all the post work has been done at 2k.. and you can't exactly go back and just press an 'X2 Resolution' button and render it out? In the long run it will end up costing more to redo it in 4k.

Then again, I really know nothing so I could be an idiot...

Now that your cameras are here, a lot will be changing.

Lastly, when is the IPO?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Theory: "Future proofing" is necessary because higher resolution current and future electronic formats obsolete anything that wasn't created in those formats and make it worthless.

Reality: Almost 15 years into the high definition age, many, many shows that exist only on standard definition continue to make a awful lot of money for their owners. Cases in point: Friends (played in SD hundreds of times a day on hundreds of outlets worldwide), Monty Python's Flying Circus (played on broadcast and sold on every video format available, including streaming), and countless dramas shot in 1.33 aspect ratio and never remastered. The fact is that good material is good material, and if it has quality, creative originality, and general appeal it will continue to survive and sell regardless of the format it was created in. Do I consider Monty Python future proof? You bet I do, not because it was on a particular video format, but because it was brilliant. Now, thats not to say that when one is shooting anything new, one should not shoot on the best available format at the time - of course they should. But despite the hyperbole, valuable material is not obsoleted by new formats if it's appeal is the result of anything other than what it looks like. And future proofing to me is about much more than that. To me, selling Red because the images are great, the workflow is refined and in place, the physical form factors of the new cameras are superb, and the pricing is beyond reasonable are all logical, realistic, and absolutely true arguments. Claiming that anything that isn't 4K or 5K is going to be worthless, regardless of its artistic, social, or historic merit is quite a bit more of a stretch given the reams of evidence to the contrary.

Very probably not worthless. But possibly, worth less? :001_huh:

Seems to me the main point is to use the best tools available to ensure the most future value. On that it seems most people can agree.

 

[M Most]

Secondly!

Was something about 14mb/s , right?

With very non-real time encoding speeds. Not currently possible as a "live" passthrough based on what's been demonstrated.

Live sports in a 4K format - the only kind that really matters - would require a lot more than what's been shown or even talked about in order to be practical. I don't disagree that it could eventually happen, but the time frame is likely not "close" unless we're talking about theatrical exhibition, a la some of the 3D sports presentations that have already been done - and I'm not so sure there would be much public interest in that based purely on higher resolution. Higher resolution AND 3D, maybe. And by "close" I mean the next few years. Beyond that, who knows, and Jim does tend to think in terms of longer time frames when he's developing things.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Monty Python was shot on film...

Now... I don't know it is possible to reassemble those episodes in 4k from 16mm

But it is pretty much within Jims point...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

(...) and Jim does tend to think in terms of longer time frames when he's developing things.

Which is good.

Even though I tend to agree with you on your TV perspective.
What TV I am involved with here is produced at 1080 25p 5.1, and delivered at 720 50p stereo...

We're still a bit off delivering 1080....

 

[Jody Neckles]

With very non-real time encoding speeds. Not currently possible as a "live" passthrough based on what's been demonstrated.

Surely the folks at DVS could help RED develop some heavy iron to solve that one?