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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Big Mistake...

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Gunleik Groven said:
Which is good.

Even though I tend to agree with you on your TV perspective.
What TV I am involved with here is produced at 1080 25p 5.1, and delivered at 720 50p stereo...

We're still a bit off delivering 1080....
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Just for perspective:

Delivers for TV are here pal beta sp or sx????
 
Benjamin Scot said:
Just curious if you have heard any word on whether or not Spiderman, any of the other features being shot on EPIC are being finished in 4K?

Obviously the whole goal now is finish in 4k... and released in 4k to the cinemas that can actually show it.
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There are two factors at work that prevent that at the moment. First, there is no currently available 4K stereoscopic projector, nor is there a current DCP format that supports 4K at 48fps, which would be the requirement for such a delivery. Second, the time and associated costs for doing the number of high end visual effects shots at 4K that are required in something like a Spider-Man movie are prohibitive if the picture is going to hit its release date. Since visual effects will probably touch at least 70% of the shots in the movie, doing the DI in 4K is kind of a waste if all of the effects work is finished in 2K, just like it was on SpiderMan 2 and 3. Hopefully I'm wrong on both counts. By the time SM is released, the TI 4K projectors will be in place, and capable of 4K at the frame rates required for stereoscopic presentation. And perhaps the DCP standard will be amended to allow for 4K stereoscopic DCP's, along with servers that are updated to handle the higher data rates. Or perhaps Red will succeed in pushing their 4K format into mainstream distribution by then. So at the moment, what you're suggesting is not possible. By spring of 2012 - the anticipated release date for the new Spiderman movie - who knows. In any case, decisions on how to finish that picture are a ways away, although my guess would be that they would like to do what you're suggesting if it's technically and financially feasible.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Monty Python was shot on film...

Now... I don't know it is possible to reassemble those episodes in 4k from 16mm

But it is pretty much within Jims point...
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Monty Python was not shot on film. The exterior segments were, but the shows were performed in the studio in front of a live audience and recorded on videotape, with the film segments rolled in live. The only existing copies of those shows are the videotapes because that is how they were created.
 
M Most said:
Monty Python was not shot on film. The exterior segments were, but the shows were performed in the studio in front of a live audience and recorded on videotape, with the film segments rolled in live. The only existing copies of those shows are the videotapes because that is how they were created.
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Ok... Back in the early 70's...

But as you said.I won't stop watching them because of that.

Friends and cheers, though... -:)
 
Marcus Irvin said:
I agree with everything you said, except Jannard is much more Tesla than Edison...
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Analogies have their limits, so let's just agree that what Jim is doing is historic.

I'm a high school teacher so please forgive the unrequested history lesson, but I think what the RED team is doing is historically important for technology, communications and business method reasons. His results will be epic, but EPIC is just an amazing beginning.
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I'm a high school teacher too (Bio and Chem). Seems we have the same "giving unrequested lessons" occupational disease. Glad someone from the Kodachrome generation has kept up well enough to teach tech.

4K education is just a pipe dream coming someday for a later generation.
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Don't get me started or this will veer further OT into banned political discussion. But I do remember attending public school in the 60's when California led the nation in per-pupil expenditure. Now we're down with perennial cellar-dweller Mississippi.

Anyway, as Epic moves into new markets, maybe a lot of excess HD equipment will trickle down. Or even better, if Jim is as successful as his breakthroughs indicate, maybe he'll try to prime the next generation by putting a "Scarlet in every school" plus a MacPro Tower with Red Rocket to handle the data.
 
Fun thing is that most (actually: all) 1080 equipment I have put against a rez chart, have not resolved anything like 1080. And that includes the most prominent suspects.

And Gavins monochrome example from above, is actually quite relevant...

Then add 13 bits...

LOL
 
Tom Lowe said:
The same place Star Wars Episodes 2 and 3 are... locked at 1080p forever. The popularity of these films will make them endure, but it's not advisable to be shooting new films at 1080p.
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Then again Episodes 2 and 3 still aren't even out in 1080p yet.
 
Actually a thing I did the very first day I was able to shoot RED (Thanks Eirik!) was to make monochrome images and see how they resolved into greyscale.

I was kind of surprised...

The methodology wasn't all there yet, but the results spoke for themselves, even then (back on build 11...)

Edit:
I haven't run these first images through RedlogFilm, yet, but that's only because I have a pretty good idea about how they will look...
 
Liam Hall said:
My, what a lot of words. Here's some more:

This is not aimed at you per se, but lots of people seem to believe shooting on Epic will bring the success they've always dreamed of. No doubt, for some it will, but I can't help but think that when these cameras finally are in the hands of the masses there will be a lot of people blaming other tools and other people for their lack of success and broken dreams.

This is aimed at you, laughing at the guy who said he was planning on making a movie on a DSLR is both rude and stupid. I always tell people to get out and shoot, shoot anything on anything, make something and learn something and above all, don't be a camera snob - it will be your undoing.
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I didn't laugh in the Guy's face, which would have indeed been rude, but not necessarily stupid. (But I did laugh later along with some other Red owners whom I told the story to.) I simply told him my story and he then had some food for thought. Think of it as Gallows humor.

As for Epic bringing success, you make a valid point. My point is: there are enough obstacles to making a film, why let resolution be one of them if you don't have to?

I'm not a camera snob. I love all cameras. In fact, I have a soft spot in my heart for my very low rez point and shoot. But when you are spending real money to put something in front of a camera, you should think through to the ability to generate revenue in years to come.
 
M Most said:
Theory: "Future proofing" is necessary because higher resolution current and future electronic formats obsolete anything that wasn't created in those formats and make it worthless.

Reality: Almost 15 years into the high definition age, many, many shows that exist only on standard definition continue to make a awful lot of money for their owners. Cases in point: Friends (played in SD hundreds of times a day on hundreds of outlets worldwide), Monty Python's Flying Circus (played on broadcast and sold on every video format available, including streaming), and countless dramas shot in 1.33 aspect ratio and never remastered. The fact is that good material is good material, and if it has quality, creative originality, and general appeal it will continue to survive and sell regardless of the format it was created in. Do I consider Monty Python future proof? You bet I do, not because it was on a particular video format, but because it was brilliant. Now, thats not to say that when one is shooting anything new, one should not shoot on the best available format at the time - of course they should. But despite the hyperbole, valuable material is not obsoleted by new formats if it's appeal is the result of anything other than what it looks like. And future proofing to me is about much more than that. To me, selling Red because the images are great, the workflow is refined and in place, the physical form factors of the new cameras are superb, and the pricing is beyond reasonable are all logical, realistic, and absolutely true arguments. Claiming that anything that isn't 4K or 5K is going to be worthless, regardless of its artistic, social, or historic merit is quite a bit more of a stretch given the reams of evidence to the contrary.
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Good post. While I agree with Jim and pushing technology, we shouldn't lose site of this. Kinda like the advice to film makers that it's better to shoot in whatever you have than nothing at all.

Same with technology, better to shoot on the best technology/format you can afford ....

That said, I applaud Red for not only providing the new technology -- but for the first time making it truly affordable to more professionals around the world.

Looking forward to seeing the first sporting events shot on 5k EPIC :emote_popcorn:
 
AnthonyFlores said:
(...)

Kinda like the advice to film makers that it's better to shoot in whatever you have than nothing at all.
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Even though I may be seen as a guy with a bad attitude, this I do wholeheartedly agree with.... Being an early adaptor, testing alternative cameras and all...
 
For the sake of discussion let's assume that at some point 4K is the dominant display resolution. What needs to happen to reach the tipping point?

1) The availability of 4K display tech at prices similar to 2009 HDTVs for the home and theatrical projectors similar to the $175K Sony T-420 for closer to $70K.

2) A 4K ecosystem for production and post at manageable price points, similar to working in 1080 HD in 2009.

a) With the RedOne, the Epic and 35mm film we are pretty much there already, in terms of a sustainable cost structure for acquisition. VFX at 4K is about one more cycle of Moore's Law away from being similar to the demands of 1080/2K now so let's say 2012.

Post is another animal. Assuming DPX, 16 bit Open EXR or some other "relatively uncompressed" format is still the standard for post that may require 2 more cycles of Moore's Law (about 3 years) to make 4K reasonably affordable beyond the top tier of the industry. This is primarily a data load issue.

Of course if some visionary company with astute leadership, first rate engineering and plenty of skin the 4K game were to push out a 4K mezzanine/authoring codec with mild compression and high quality...

3) Distribution. Red already has an under 20mbs delivery codec for RedRay that is small enough to have the potential to be distributable over data networks (I realize that is faster than most home broadband rates in the US today but it is not miles off). Yes, the encoding for live work would be challenging and I have no specific knowledge of what kind of horsepower is needed on the decode side, but based on the RedRay this seems to be on the near term horizon. The RedRay player is presumably the answer for theatrical.

Cheers - #19

PS: Where can I buy one of those Epson 4K projectors???
 
M Most said:
Theory: "Future proofing" is necessary because higher resolution current and future electronic formats obsolete anything that wasn't created in those formats and make it worthless.

Reality: Almost 15 years into the high definition age, many, many shows that exist only on standard definition continue to make a awful lot of money for their owners. Cases in point: Friends (played in SD hundreds of times a day on hundreds of outlets worldwide), Monty Python's Flying Circus (played on broadcast and sold on every video format available, including streaming), and countless dramas shot in 1.33 aspect ratio and never remastered. The fact is that good material is good material, and if it has quality, creative originality, and general appeal it will continue to survive and sell regardless of the format it was created in. Do I consider Monty Python future proof? You bet I do, not because it was on a particular video format, but because it was brilliant. Now, thats not to say that when one is shooting anything new, one should not shoot on the best available format at the time - of course they should. But despite the hyperbole, valuable material is not obsoleted by new formats if it's appeal is the result of anything other than what it looks like. And future proofing to me is about much more than that. To me, selling Red because the images are great, the workflow is refined and in place, the physical form factors of the new cameras are superb, and the pricing is beyond reasonable are all logical, realistic, and absolutely true arguments. Claiming that anything that isn't 4K or 5K is going to be worthless, regardless of its artistic, social, or historic merit is quite a bit more of a stretch given the reams of evidence to the contrary.
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Friends was shot in 35mm so expect it to get an HD re-master then be licenced to HD broadcasters for a markup - then released on Blu-Ray once they think they've milked the DVDs for every penny they can get. They are going to be a hundred million dollar argument for high quality acquisition.

Alas, Monty Python is mostly trapped on tape so while it will live on, it will fade faster than it should. They will have trouble convincing the few remaining SD channels to air it yet again- and it will be extremely hard to convince an HD outlet to air it at all with the serious downgrade in visual quality.

Sure Monty Python has sold on nearly every format out there... "has" and "sold" being very past tense. What is their plan for Blu-Ray and why would anyone buy it? What is their plan for a 4K world and why would anyone buy it? They are comedy gold so they will not be forgotten or go unwatched- it's just that now that we've got it at the best possible quality, who will bother paying for it again?

One of those is going to make a hundred times what the other is and so I thank you for allowing me to make such a perfect comparison.:reddevil:
 
Clint Johnson said:
Friends was shot in 35mm so expect it to get an HD re-master then be licenced to HD broadcasters for a markup - then released on Blu-Ray once they think they've milked the DVDs for every penny they can get.
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And yet that hasn't happened, even though HD broadcast has been around for about 15 years and BluRay for about 8. Columbia retransferred Seinfeld to HD a number of years ago, at the cost of a great deal of trouble and expense, and I think if you were to ask someone there if they ever really got any additional sales because of that, I think the honest answer would be very little. Seinfeld continues to be shown because, well, it's Seinfeld, and it was so brilliantly done that you can watch the same episodes 50 times and they still seem fresh - regardless of whether they're SD, HD, 16x9, 4x3, or whatever. Hence my point.

If Warner Bros. thought there was any additional revenue to be gained from retransferring all of those Friends episodes, believe me, they would have done it a long time ago. That hasn't happened, regardless of your theory.

Alas, Monty Python is mostly trapped on tape so while it will live on, it will fade faster than it should. They will have trouble convincing the few remaining SD channels to air it yet again- and it will be extremely hard to convince an HD outlet to air it at all with the serious downgrade in visual quality.
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Well, it has survived and thrived for about 40 years now, so I really don't see a particular problem here. And it is currently aired on cable, broadcast, streaming video, and every other format known and unknown. And I personally don't know of anyone who's complaining, once again, regardless of your theory.

One of those is going to make a hundred times what the other is and so I thank you for allowing me to make such a perfect comparison.:reddevil:
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Clearly, I completely disagree. The difference between my point of view and yours is that mine is rooted in actual evidence. Yours is based on theory that conforms to your personal preference. That doesn't necessarily make me right into the distant future (when I'll be dead and won't care anyway), but it does indicate that history does not support your view.
 
Just wondering... is RED the only company offers 4k at this moment? I tried to search..

And I think 4k is really nice (even I never saw it with 4k projector or 4k monitor but..) but I feel like major camera manufacturers are moving to UHD area instead of 4k. What do you guys think about the UHD?
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Ok. Taking the night off...

Firing up Monthy Python...
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Shhhhh, it hurts my argument that we'd both rather watch Monty Python off a wore out VHS tape than a perfect re-master of Friends in 4K.

Move it along to the next post M Most, nothin' to see here.
 
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