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The 8K lens dillema..

ignition

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We're currently running a Dragon and on the Weapon upgrade path.. expecting to go 8K weapon at the end of the year.

Have equipped a lot of high end gear around our kit, but the one thing we're missing is a decent set of primes. Was actually going to get some CP.2's before the Weapon NAB announcement and whilst we're weighing pennies, it's also introduced caution around buying lenses future proof to an 8K / VV ecosystem.

The cost/weight/form factor of CP.2's remains attractive.. and whilst they theoretically will almost certainly cover the 8K sensor .. I think it'll be a few months before there's certainty on that. And that probably holds true for most MF/FF lenses.

In my many late night researching of lenses I've become intrigued on the Zeiss Otus lenses (w/Duclos cinemod). They seem incredibly fast and producing beautiful pictures.

Sure, they're relatively big and heavy.. but motion video test I've seen are really encouraging. Obviously limited with just a 55mm and 85mm option. They're on the verge of releasing a third lens - 24mm or 35mm seem the majority vote of rumors.. even then, short of a full prime lens kit, but likely enough for us for a core kit we can maybe augment with some other options (maybe from the ZF/ZE cinemod stable etc.)

So my long winded question is ... does anyone have perspectives on the likely coverage/performance of these Otus lenses on an 8K format?

Both 55mm and 85mm seem to cover our existing Dragon .. and I'm starting to think we roll the dice on getting these two lenses in the range now, provide 55/85 for our Dragon and see what the future holds.

Would love to hear what others think of these lenses - now and into the 8K future - and what others on the upgrade path might be weighing up now in terms of glass acquisition.
 
Full 8K has a larger image circle/coverage demand than FF35. I think many still lens designs will cover in the longer focal lengths but it's in the wider lenses that there could be porthole issues. I think lots of shooters will window down to 7.5K etc. when shooting wide lenses or crop in post. That said there will certainly be solutions and some lenses will be better at adapting to cine shooting than others. Off the shelf I can think of the Summicron C's as a possible good choice, Xenons, Canon's, Leica Rs could also work.
 
Full 8K has a larger image circle/coverage demand than FF35. I think many still lens designs will cover in the longer focal lengths but it's in the wider lenses that there could be porthole issues. I think lots of shooters will window down to 7.5K etc. when shooting wide lenses or crop in post. That said there will certainly be solutions and some lenses will be better at adapting to cine shooting than others. Off the shelf I can think of the Summicron C's as a possible good choice, Xenons, Canon's, Leica Rs could also work.

Arent Summicrons s35? My guess is most FF35 glass should work pretty well - both Otus primes are presumably long enough to provide excellent coverage...
 
The cp2 zoom is amazing by the way, totally different from the primes
 
As a cost-cutting Weapon 8k depositor (I know... oxymoronic, eh?) I've just purchased 6 Mamiya Secor 645 C prime lenses and one 105-210 zoom of the same make. I had hoped to mount them to the OEM Magnesium PL mount that comes with Weapon, but am having trouble readily finding what I need, though I'm still working on it.

My fall-back plan will be to mount via adapter to a Nikon F mount. I have the RED Nikon electronic mount but it appears to be windowed to 6k, which would still leave me in good shape with center cut of the Mamiya glass.

And I also have an Opti-tec Nikon mount meant to work with Nikon G lenses. It has no "window" inside so I'm hoping it may allow a little more use of the Mamiya 645 sweetspot. I may have to grind down the ear that operates the G lens aperture to get more window area.

This could be my temporary way of working until a proper PL mount adapter becomes available.

I know this may sound crude to many used to buying tried and true options... but for me at least, often the crude option works elegantly.
 
I thought the Leica C series was engineered for FF coverage?

Leica Summicron-C Primes are designed for Super 35mm. They have enough coverage to let us get away with 6K FF shooting for the most part.


So my long winded question is ... does anyone have perspectives on the likely coverage/performance of these Otus lenses on an 8K format?

We need to do the proper coverage tests on the 8K sensor, but I feel that the 55mm and 85mm Otus will cover 8K FF. As for the upcoming wide angle prime that comes out later this year, I have no idea yet.
 
Phil Holland said:
We need to do the proper coverage tests on the 8K sensor, but I feel that the 55mm and 85mm Otus will cover 8K FF.

At Cine Gear, Zeiss was being conservative and only saying they cover 43mm for the time being when asked about 8k. They did mention a wide Otus will be announced in September and two more designs are complete, with one being longer than 85mm.
 
At Cine Gear, Zeiss was being conservative and only saying they cover 43mm for the time being when asked about 8k. They did mention a wide Otus will be announced in September and two more designs are complete, with one being longer than 85mm.

Shhhhh.
 
Why worry about 8K FF? I have little doubt that 8KHD, 8K 1:1.85 and 1:2.35 will be covered by the vast majority if not all of the FF lenses. While 8KFF will push the envelope it is not a "working" format. I understand 8KFF could be handy by giving you a smidge of left/right reframing room it will be only a small compromise if you find lenses softening and vignetting in this extra area. We do need real world tests but I would bet most FF glass will cover 8K HD with only the widest angle lenses possibly not covering 8K FF.

While meduim format glass is interesting by no means will you need them to cover your 8K sensor. I own a set of Canon CN primes and I am confident of their performance on the new camera. Of course this arguement is just based on "First Principles" and I look forward to some tests from some of the lucky Beta testers.
 
The existing Otus lenses, cinemod by Duclos, look like a great solution as individual lenses in the current Dragon world. I guess our dilemma is first the lack of a few other critical focal lengths (ZF2 cinemod could be a stop gap), but then the 8K uncertainty casts an ever greater shadow at the moment. Which clearly exists across any lens right now - Cine, MF - even the most expensive ones.

Stats and theory indicate a range of lenses would be comfortable on the 8K sensor but @Phil is wholly right in that until we see actual results of glass on sensor in controlled tests, these assumptions may still prove wrong in practical tests. And we might discover some surprise options along the way as well, as I'm sure some references to image circle/coverage etc. have been stated in regard to practical application within 'known' S35 of FF35 limits.

I do hope 8K prototypes advance quickly enough to let some of these practical tests be conducted sooner rather than later as glass is an equally if not more expensive asset than the camera acquisition and it's created (at least for us) a kind of stasis on investing in new glass for our existing Dragon and "wait and see" can become commercially hobbling over protracted periods of time.

As an aside, am surprised at the Summilux-C being S35. Amazing glass from footage I've seen, but at the $100k price point it seems bittersweet to have a 6K cap (and I recall some of the focal lengths and various T stops exhibit vignette etc. even at 6K)

@Tom pragmatically that's correct as 8KFF is not a finishing format. But I'm hopefully not the only one that enjoys a little latitude from 2:1 in post and I'm primarily concerned about FUHD if I'm investing in 8K.

BTW is anyone aware of any other Otus / Dragon footage around? I've seen Phil's test (thanks!) and Brighton Kiss (love this).. but haven't found much else.

Anyhow, the dilemma has inadvertently sent me on a curious investigative journey on MF and vintage glass, and it does make me wonder what the possibilities are there and whether we might found ourselves digging into the vaults and discovering some new beautiful applications of vintage glass with ground breaking 8K technology.. the prospect is strangely comforting to me, kind of like we've gone full circle (pun intended).
 
Hi Ignition,
My money would go on the Canon CNE primes, not sure who sells them in Oz but DUCLOS sells a great set converted to PL: http://www.ducloslenses.com/collections/canon-primes/products/canon-cn-e-pro-set
Theres a hole between 14mm & 24mm (no 18mm or 20mm) but they look lovely, extremely close flares to Canon K glass but with modern contrast..not Master Prime Contrast but enough for all situations. I shot this on the DRAGON with KOWA's & CN-E's too: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4cagk2ibrcad9af/Indonesia_Dog_v004_150605.mp4?dl=0 ..I don't have a smaller version to show you..there's one on YouTube but the quality is terrible.
Good luck with your hunt, Stu.
 
@Stu - that's freakin' amazing.. the CN-E primes have remained on par for us with CP.2's ... their price point just keeps seeming too good to be true..

Jury is still out on 8KFF coverage but they seem very much in the game.. to be honest, I've found myself hovering over the BUY button on BHPhoto for the discounted kit on numerous occasions.

That's an amazing shoot by the way; I had to keep pulling myself away from the narrative (direction) and production value and remind myself I'm trying to judge glass performance... and I say direction/prod value rather than cinematography because I've always found outstanding cinematography is wholly transparent to the viewer. This is really fine work :)

Seems like a short that embraces the concept, but the opening chant scenes are hauntingly familiar to a doco I can't quite recall ... was it just the conceptual short you've shared or part of something more? It's really great. The scale is kind of mind blowing.

Do you mind sharing what key shots were on Kowa glass vs CN-E's?

PS: My name's Darren, per the tagline.. I've tried like 3 or 4 times by the proper process/thread to get this REDuser handle name changed!

PPS: Epic boat shot TC 1:15 specifically... feeling 'aerial'.. just a slider or dolly shot? Love to know more... PM me?
 
I have a set of Summicron Cs and they cover 6k full sensor just fine. Also just shot a job at full sensor 6k with Leica R's intercut with Leica Summicron Cs and I can't tell them apart.

Nice glass.

M
 
We need to do the proper coverage tests on the 8K sensor, but I feel that the 55mm and 85mm Otus will cover 8K FF.

Both Otus lenses are very sharp, and very minimal breathing - but that comes with a trade off - on FF35 which is what they were optimized for, they both vignette 2.5 to 3 stops wide open. The 55 has to be stopped down to 4 or 5.6 to be clean, the 85 is better. I tried out several copies because I was surprised it was worse than the sigma 50mm art and about the same as a canon 1.2, all copies were very similar. Given the amount of vignetting, I doubt they will cover the much larger 46mm 8k very well or at least have to be stopped down way too much to be practical.
 
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Hi Ignition,
My money would go on the Canon CNE primes, not sure who sells them in Oz but DUCLOS sells a great set converted to PL: http://www.ducloslenses.com/collections/canon-primes/products/canon-cn-e-pro-set
Theres a hole between 14mm & 24mm (no 18mm or 20mm) but they look lovely, extremely close flares to Canon K glass but with modern contrast..not Master Prime Contrast but enough for all situations. I shot this on the DRAGON with KOWA's & CN-E's too: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4cagk2ibrcad9af/Indonesia_Dog_v004_150605.mp4?dl=0 ..I don't have a smaller version to show you..there's one on YouTube but the quality is terrible.
Good luck with your hunt, Stu.

Wow, amazing project, Stuart! The cinematography is just stellar! Is there any chance that you could upload a 1080p version?
 
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