Test test test... blog blog blog.

[Bob Gundu]

I still don't have the courage to watch the test

 

[mitch aunger]

Good day all!

I want to thank those of you who have commented since my last post. I do appreciate the respectful input and constructive comments! THAT is what I want to see everywhere I go.

Yes, Rob has learned a lot from your comments here and tho his ego is bruised, he will come out a better man. So will I. But I stick by my words that the BASHING is not necessary and if you were attacked in the way that I saw here yesterday, you'd be upset too... "do unto others" works really well I think.

 

[mitch aunger]

Hi Mitch,

As stated in my original post, I bare no ill will towards the reviewers or yourself. I am not an elitist. Nor do I trade in insults. Nor do I dispute anyones right to do anything at all, except only when it is harmful to myself or others. Unfortunately misinformation can be quite damaging to others even when unintentional, so this made me feel compelled to post my concerns in what is the relevant forum for me as a Scarlet owner. I think your defence of your reviewers is admirable, but I do hope you might also be able to see the other side of this coin too.

That said, I confess the fact this thread would likely draw some ire was not lost on me. So I do feel some responsibility in having started it. But as in fairness I feel must the reviewers, and indeed you.

Perception is very powerful, and when you post and endorse tests on your site and email them out to your readership, I'd contend that however you may or may not see yourself, it gives them a weight that brings with it a level of expectation and scrutiny that perhaps in this instance hasn't really served any of us too well.

I don't want anybody to feel bad. Not you, your guys, or the guys on here who were upset by the test and so had a dig either. But nor do I want to feel bad after clicking on an email and seeing that people en-masse are now being quite badly misinformed about the capabilities of the camera I own and worked ever so hard to get, and may even negatively affect my families welfare.

However, there's no malice or ill will on my behalf, just a desire for improvement, and I can genuinely say that I do wish everyone well with their careers.

Best

Lliam

Thank you sir.

I will challenge you with this tho... maybe it would have been much better for everyone involved if you would have posted your response where I think it should have been posted -- in the planet5D forums! That is where the article was written and posted - that is where the objections should be!

None of my readers have any idea this conversation is going on over here (well maybe some who also read here)... but those 11,000 people on my mailing list would very likely benefit from a reply over where they can see it.

In fact, I gladly ask that any of you who would like to post a respectful rebuttal so that all of my planet5D readers can benefit are welcome! If you're so upset about the way the cameras were treated, then let's work together to solve that! We can all learn from that!

You can PM me here or contact me on the blog

I am looking for writers and would love to have some experienced RED content - and it would help everyone

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Hi Mitch,

Ha! Maybe Could have been a mass melt down To be honest, I see this community as my home, so I like to discuss most things I am concerned about here especially if they are RED related. *Edit just checked the thread over on the site, doesn't appear to be any comments on it, so perhaps better for all involved just to let sleeping dogs lie...

Or otherwise if you are looking for writers and he can find the time and is interested, I think REDuser Phil Holland would be absolutely ideal. Without wanting to embarrass Phil, his skills, testing and the sharing of his knowledge here on RU is exceptional. And his knowledge goes well beyond the RED eco system. But there are many other great sources here on RU too, so hopefully one of them takes you up on your excellent offer.

Alternatively, if no one else bites, I am going away for a shoot in Nepal soon, but when i'm back later in April if you are still interested in submissions I could happily put something together - I would especially enjoy debunking some of the RED is so difficult myths

Best Wishes

Lliam

 

[Phil Holland]

Or otherwise if you are looking for writers and he can find the time and is interested, I think REDuser Phil Holland would be absolutely ideal. Without wanting to embarrass Phil, his skills, testing and the sharing of his knowledge here on RU is exceptional. And his knowledge goes well beyond the RED eco system. But there are many other great sources here on RU too, so hopefully one of them takes you up on your excellent offer.

Shhh. They'll steal me away from Reduser!

@mitch. I think something that would be neat, at least from my perspective and perhaps from an educational standpoint, is Rob and the other folks who were looking at these cameras shooting with each of them for about 3-5 days.

This was more of a first look for sure. But, there's so much more about all of these cameras when you get out there and start shooting with them. Nearly every "Red virgin" I've demonstrated the camera system, modular components, and post workflow options to is pretty much blown away within an hour. That's largely due to my familiarity with the system at this point, focusing on what it was designed to do, and showcasing just what can be done. In realistic production environments and workflows these cameras show their strengths and weaknesses pretty quickly. Red certainly has an advantage as .R3D is pretty much widely supported these days.

In reality, all of these cameras are digital motion picture cameras. But each have their own flavor and how you should use them to get the highest quality images out of them. That comes with a bit of experimentation and potentially a bit of research.

Just a note for Rob and the rest testing the gear. When it comes to "hardcore" testing it's best to view these as moderate science experiments. Try to have "controls" setup and eliminate variables from the equation. Mixed lighting and lenses are going to produce different results. There's certainly room for the user experience and opinion, and I think actually that's something that's nice about this test. It's also nice to mix it up and get those practical situations in as well. There's many examples of good tests online these days. Sometimes they require a lot of work and time, sometimes they are a bit easier to pull off. But, take a look at there method and procedure for sure.

Wish you guys the best on the journey. Keep learning. This industry and technology changes rapidly. The fundamental concepts behind quality motion picture capture don't change as quickly. The key thing is to keep learning and stay fresh. Eventually you get a big ol' box of tools and techniques.

 

[mitch aunger]

Hi Mitch,

Ha! Maybe Could have been a mass melt down To be honest, I see this community as my home, so I like to discuss most things I am concerned about here especially if they are RED related. *Edit just checked the thread over on the site, doesn't appear to be any comments on it, so perhaps better for all involved just to let sleeping dogs lie...

Or otherwise if you are looking for writers and he can find the time and is interested, I think REDuser Phil Holland would be absolutely ideal. Without wanting to embarrass Phil, his skills, testing and the sharing of his knowledge here on RU is exceptional. And his knowledge goes well beyond the RED eco system. But there are many other great sources here on RU too, so hopefully one of them takes you up on your excellent offer.

Alternatively, if no one else bites, I am going away for a shoot in Nepal soon, but when i'm back later in April if you are still interested in submissions I could happily put something together - I would especially enjoy debunking some of the RED is so difficult myths

Best Wishes

Lliam

Lliam, while I completely understand the idea of this being your "home" - I would urge you in the future to break out of that in situations like this. If I hadn't been alerted to this thread, then I wouldn't know about it and possibly the young man wouldn't have the feedback he needs to improve from people with knowledge and passion like yourself. I guess it comes down to either just standing around the water cooler and complaining (here) or being proactive and doing something by helping others (posting on planet5D). I hope you choose to help

And I appreciate the offer of writing and for offering Phil's services! HA

Be safe while traveling to Nepal... I lost a good friend to a plane crash there many years ago. I guess that means we can't meet up at NAB?

 

[Lliam Worthington]

@ Phil, thanks for posting and your input.

@ Mitch,

Your right, I wasn't differentiating between posting here or there as ultimately being of any more or less value. I was engaging with it simply as it was presented to me, a test that reviewed the Scarlet and was sent out to a wide readership. I'll certainly consider you point of view for the future. But I do have to say I'm not in agreement on the sentiment of posting "here" on RU being the equivalent of the standing around the water cooler analogy. Regardless whether the tests came in for some harsh, warranted, unwarranted, valuable or otherwise criticisms, they are still a set of tests presented to the world, which pertain to a camera of chief interest and importance to a particular user group, and I think once something goes public, engaging with that test for critical debate is vaild where ever it may take place. With the possible exception of water coolers and the assumed negatives that implies of course

Very sorry to hear about your friend and thanks I hope to stay safe too. And no I won't be attending NAB this year, though sounds like it's going to be exciting!


Best Wishes

Lliam

 

[Nick Morrison]

Some have suggested to me that we should try to make the planet5D forums "more like reduser" because it is more "professional" - well, if this thread is an indication of what a professional forum is like, then I'm perfectly happy to stay the way we are. And if you're turned off by some of the attitudes you see here, then give planet5D a try... you won't find that kind of thing happening over there.

Mitch I applaud your forthrightness by addressing this test on Reduser, but at the same time...I fear you may be asking to "have your cake and it it too".

You can not on the one hand sanction an unprofessional test (by emailing it to thousands of subscribers, you are in effect sanctioning it and acting as it's "publisher")...and then expect your demands of "professionalism" to be taken at face value.

By sanctioning opinion as fact, you live in the same murky waters as all entertainment based journalism. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's a grey zone that's frequently at odds with professionalism.

Thank you sir.

I will challenge you with this tho... maybe it would have been much better for everyone involved if you would have posted your response where I think it should have been posted -- in the planet5D forums! That is where the article was written and posted - that is where the objections should be!

I am looking for writers and would love to have some experienced RED content - and it would help everyone

By the same token, you are entering similar waters here. While I applaud your desire for openness, your suggestion that the conversation be moved to your forum smacks of proselytizing. Your end goal comes off as trying to win new viewership and participation, not actually furthering the conversation (again, trying to "have your cake and eat it too").

Entertainment based journalism thrives on stirring up emotions, soliciting commentary, and bating scandal. While I don't deny its efficacy (and charm), please understand that it rarely lives comfortably with professionalism. At best, it has a tenuous relationship with it (usually when it's trying hard, and hoping to reach a pro audience, as Zacuto does with its "Shoot outs").

Thanks again for taking the time to post here. I have to say, it betrays a level of professionalism that is both encouraging and exciting. Kudos.

 

[mitch aunger]

While I applaud your desire for openness, your suggestion that the conversation be moved to your forum smacks of proselytizing. Your end goal comes off as trying to win new viewership and participation, not actually furthering the conversation (again, trying to "have your cake and eat it too").

I disagree. My intent is not to try to persuade people to come to planet5D. I'm simply saying that I feel would have been the proper place for the initial post to have occurred. Imagine you have a kid who is acting out in class - the right place to have the conversation about that is with the teachers and the student in the school setting (and yes something at home too), but imagine you were to have the conversation at your office instead - without the student or the others involved in the situation - complaining about how the teacher should have handled things. Totally the wrong place. That's how I feel about how this came about here. The OP posted here because he said it is his "home" -- but his comments would have been much better suited to have been on planet5D where the original material was presented. That's all I'm saying.

Additionally, I would love to have some additional coverage for planet5D readers about RED and Scarlet and Alexa and Sony etc... I'm not trying to steal any readers from REDuser, I'm looking for materials to engage our readers and expand their horizons (and mine too!).

Entertainment based journalism thrives on stirring up emotions, soliciting commentary, and bating scandal. While I don't deny its efficacy (and charm), please understand that it rarely lives comfortably with professionalism. At best, it has a tenuous relationship with it (usually when it's trying hard, and hoping to reach a pro audience, as Zacuto does with its "Shoot outs").

I'm not intending to be "entertainment based" - I'm looking to provide educational materials to all levels. Sometimes that includes mistakes and things that are done by people who are still learning.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well (which is entirely possible). I'm not expecting everyone to be professional, I am expecting people to be courteous and to provide rational constructive input to those who are trying to share. Yes, we made some mistakes on this "test" and i made some mistakes about clarifying why I was posting it. We're learning. I've never claimed that planet5D only posts "professional level results" - I share what people are learning as they go. And I'm learning I need to be more careful about explaining why I'm presenting something - and that is a great lesson!

Thanks again for taking the time to post here. I have to say, it betrays a higher level of professionalism than the very test we are talking about (and its fall out)! Kudos.

Thanks to you for your kind constructive input - that is what I expected when I came here. Many thanks.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Mitch,

I want to apologize for my harsh words early on in the thread. It was out of anger for the lack of professionalism in this "test." I should have chosen my words more carefully, so for that I greatly apologize. I along with a few other Redusers just got together for SALT III - High Speed Lens Shootout "WFO Edition," so I understand what work is involved in putting together a test (which is a ton of work). We were extremely careful with our setups and made sure things were accurate, consistent, and repeatable. We also made downloads available of all the material as well as projected every lens to get the hard numbers. We honestly sat down and had a conversation before the tests on what is the weakness in our approach, what do people want to see, and how can we make sure no one cries foul with this test? We needed to make sure we covered all of our bases. While I am biased because I was a part of that test, when I hear "professional test," that is what I expect to see.

Another reason for the frustration is that in todays day and age, producers are making more and more decisions about the gear we use. All they need is to see a "test" like this and dictate what camera I can use for the shoot regardless of my experience or my input. So for me "tests" like this are extremely damaging. I don't own a camera and consider myself camera agnostic. Certain cameras work as tools for different jobs so I choose accordingly. But the problem is when the Scarlet which is the same sensor as the Epic is put up against other cameras and looks inferior, that tool is taken from me by a producer who saw that "test," when in fact it was the perfect tool for that job. This is a huge issue for me and especially Scarlet/Epic owners who make a living using or renting them. There is also a lot of issues with folks on the web taking every test literally since they don't have access to these cameras first hand. They then take this info and spread it as fact on the net like wildfire. It's too bad because there are a lot of great camera choices but some refuse to use them because of others issues or concerns with them. A very sad reality.

I wanted to comment constructively on the Planet 5D blog but for some reason comments were disabled, so naturally this thread is where the posts went. I have no ill will towards the guys who performed this "test" and as a young guy myself (I'm probably a couple years younger than them) I enjoy seeing others doing whatever they can to learn and broaden others horizons. I would just like "tests" in the future to be as accurate as possible rather than lets just go out and shoot this and see what happens. Honestly, buttons on the camera are the last concern for a real shoot. I learned a lot from the SALT tests and I'm sure these guys learned a lot from their test. I definitely would like to see them continue doing these but highly encourage them to approach it carefully because people take these tests as fact.

Best of luck with the site and again my apologies for the harsh criticism, it in itself is unprofessional.

 

[Rob Ruscher]

My name is Rob Ruscher and I am hoping to clarify the video that was posted. I take full responsibility for the camera test and everything that was said and shown in the test. After reading every comment thoroughly, I wanted to post my thoughts.


To give a background (which Phil was pretty spot on) I am 25 years old and have been in the field professionally since 2009. I am passionate about cameras and gear and jumped at the chance to try out these 3 cameras. I thought it would be fun to document our findings. I never thought it would have this many views or even backlash.


First off, it was my mistake to label this a camera test. It was more of a first impression overview to see what it was like to use these cameras. We have been using DSLRs, EX3s, Sony F3 and Fs700 but wanted to step up to a camera that offers dynamic range and can help get us to the next level.


I wanted to do a different type of test. A real world type in which myself and company end up shooting in. A lot of times it is a crew of 2 or 3 so gear (including lights) has to very minimum. The scientific tests are great, but was hoping that a first impressions video would be fun and beneficial. I know we used different lenses on each camera, but those would be the lenses that would be used with the camera. I stand by the idea, but failed to learn the ins and outs of the cameras.


A lot of you have made some great points that I will keep in mind for next time. Again, it was more of a first impressions video than a test. I should have explained that more.


With that being said there was a lot of useless comments that I am not sure the purpose. Maybe next time I post something you don't like you could contact me directly rather than post on a forum where everyone can talk behind my back. As far as dress code not sure what that has to do with anything. In my position I do a lot of marketing and networking. I had meetings following the test along with a networking event in the evening. I didn’t know people cared so much about the clothes on ones back in this field.

I am a young guy who absolutely loves cameras and gear. I got the chance to try these cameras and wanted to document my experience. I welcome the critique and advice that can be used to better myself. If anyone is interested in coming to DC to help me learn the ways of a Scarlet and get the most out of it, I would love to talk about getting you here.

 

[Nick Morrison]

My name is Rob Ruscher and I am hoping to clarify the video that was posted. I take full responsibility for the camera test and everything that was said and shown in the test. After reading every comment thoroughly, I wanted to post my thoughts.


To give a background (which Phil was pretty spot on) I am 25 years old and have been in the field professionally since 2009. I am passionate about cameras and gear and jumped at the chance to try out these 3 cameras. I thought it would be fun to document our findings. I never thought it would have this many views or even backlash.


First off, it was my mistake to label this a camera test. It was more of a first impression overview to see what it was like to use these cameras. We have been using DSLRs, EX3s, Sony F3 and Fs700 but wanted to step up to a camera that offers dynamic range and can help get us to the next level.


I wanted to do a different type of test. A real world type in which myself and company end up shooting in. A lot of times it is a crew of 2 or 3 so gear (including lights) has to very minimum. The scientific tests are great, but was hoping that a first impressions video would be fun and beneficial. I know we used different lenses on each camera, but those would be the lenses that would be used with the camera. I stand by the idea, but failed to learn the ins and outs of the cameras.


A lot of you have made some great points that I will keep in mind for next time. Again, it was more of a first impressions video than a test. I should have explained that more.


With that being said there was a lot of useless comments that I am not sure the purpose. Maybe next time I post something you don't like you could contact me directly rather than post on a forum where everyone can talk behind my back. As far as dress code not sure what that has to do with anything. In my position I do a lot of marketing and networking. I had meetings following the test along with a networking event in the evening. I didn’t know people cared so much about the clothes on ones back in this field.

I am a young guy who absolutely loves cameras and gear. I got the chance to try these cameras and wanted to document my experience. I welcome the critique and advice that can be used to better myself. If anyone is interested in coming to DC to help me learn the ways of a Scarlet and get the most out of it, I would love to talk about getting you here.

Rob, few would have had the courage to post here after the backlash you received. To be brave enough to post here, to learn from what happened, to hold us accountable too for our actions (well done), shows a lot of class and professionalism. Congrats, and welcome to Reduser.

I've always believed you are judged not just by what you do, but how you do it (your character, your tone). With that in mind, let me add that your future looks bright.

 

[Björn Benckert]

It's all good, the more people out there that does not have a clue of what they are doing the better...

 

[Rob Ruscher]

It's all good, the more people out there that does not have a clue of what they are doing the better...

Good point. The more assholes we have in the field the better...

 

[Mike Garrick]

@ Rob Rusher......Welcome.......good for you, own your mistakes, learn from it & move on.

Passion I respect, keep at it. .....& ask a lot of questions.

 

[Rob Ruscher]

Mike and Nick thank you. Hoping to meet some of you guys at NAB.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Rob, credit for your post. Wishing you all the best.

Mitch and Rob, much as I want to move on and I don't want to be provocative, but I feel this whole post behind your back, wrong place stuff, must be addressed. I'm a Scarlet owner. You made a test about the Scarlet. Sent the test about the scarlet to me. And I posted about it on the Scarlet forum. As it is full of Scarlet owners and users. I've accepted your point that "you" feel it would have been of better value to be on your forum Mitch. But I'm not going to dispute whether I should post a test about the Scarlet on the Scarlet forum. Because it was panned is irrelevant, if not without good reason. And as unfortunate as that maybe for all involved, it doesn't mitigate it's need or validity in being discussed anywhere. But especially here. As this is the community it stands to most significantly impact upon. I honestly find it bizarre I need to iterate this.

You have asked people on here consider Rob's feelings and have empathy with him. Fair enough. And most have. Along with the outrage over the test and some digs about attire - which I didn't even notice Rob and couldn't give lees than two shits about - this thread has both gracious and humble apologies, constructive advice, reasoned criticisms, and well wishes. I actually think that speaks highly of those people and of REDuser. Especially if you will consider the flip side, which has still not really been conceded to be honest, and is why this thread exists. Matt just spoke of it very succinctly. It is not a water cooler syndrome Mitch. And it is not insignificant. As tests that are made and published wide spread by you, may very well affect the livelihood and welfare of others. There are people on REDuser right now very upset about their ability to gain acceptance for Scarlet in their markets. And I, like many others I'm sure, have to deal with a lot of misconceptions and bagging of RED. At the end of the day, really, let's all just agree to look after each other better. And if was in the US Rob, I'd very happily give you all the time in the world to learn and shoot a Scarlet.

Best Wishes

Lliam

 

[Rob Ruscher]

Lliam I can see why you posted it here, I guess I wasn't a fan of what everyone said and how they went about saying it. This is a Red forum so anything posted about a Red should be shared here, no disagreements there.

With that said, I learned more from any other video I have ever posted. There was a lot of good information and critique in there that I will take for next time. Hence why I signed up to this forum and willing to listen to the constructive criticism. Along with that I have read a ton of stuff including Phil's Data Sheet and looking forward to applying it.

Appreciate that you would like to help if you were here in the US and thank you for your open mind.

If there is one thing we can agree on it is that the Red is not a camera you can just turn on for the first time and shoot. I didn't do my homework before hand. Maybe I was cocky and thought I could figure out any camera on the spot. Let's just say I learned my lesson.

I am looking forward to learning everything I can about this camera and produce the famous image it is known for. I may be a fan of the F3, but have always been intrigued by Red.

 

[Andy White]

Rob, good that you posted, that shows your shoulders are broad - and that's needed in this industry

You're part of a new set of shooters that are coming up from a non film background... but many people here have been in the industry a long time (and experience base was/is film). Really, the RED process is interesting as it's more like a film process - rate your film stock ie 320 or 800 and leave your ISO alone & filter to get it where you want... and then, in terms of RAW, it's like having a film negative and then taking your image from there.

You're lucky in that the world you're working in now has digital editing and grading... and S35 digital sensors that make film-like images. Imagine going back 15 years - and you'd be shocked at what we used to use and how things have changed. Go back 20 years and you'd be hard pressed to find anything digital... and further back to the late 80's and the world was a different place - without the wonders of the web

I'm, rambling a bit, but there's a point... in the old world, there was a way of doing things... and access to kit was difficult (due to expense - and there simply wasn't anything like REDs or DSLRs). So you learned from the ground up and that created a certain methodology/approach, as everything was learned from other people and actual experience - the catch all of the net for info/data (both good and bad) simply wasn't there.

In the Brave New World of Digital Democratization (LOL!) anything is possible.

But you put in neatly in your last post, that REDs are not a turn on and shoot camera (if it's your first time), they do work on certain principles - once you understand these principles, what you get from them shines.

 

[dennys bisogno]

And with Andy's comment, let's all have a virtual Beer :cheers2: take the good parts of this thread and move on...