Talk me into keeping my Scarlet-W order

[Bob Gundu]

How would you describe the difference between the Sony fs700+7Q with a LUT applied compared to a Scarlet-W with a matched LUT applied? Problem is I know a lot of people say Sony has a look and maybe I've been using Sony too long but the basic Sony TypeA LUT designed to look like the Alexa 709 look seems pretty darn close not to mention so many other great LUTs designed for the camera's output. Do you think somehow a Sony look or FS700 is retained even after LUTting and even grading? If so can you explain what you mean?

Well, most Sony footage looks like this to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0EYWE6A_p0&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY1XrOQ5MdU&feature=youtu.be

The edge sharpening doesn't look too great to my eyes. But this is a personal preference.

 

[Lucas Wilkinson]

My problem with the Sony fs700, is that the footage looks like Sony fs700.

This is the best thing I've read in a while.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I am not as nuts as those guys at Isle of man and the Macau Grand Prix...but I do like to go fast on the racetrack!

Crazy, insane, but damn heroes. True Gladiators. Big respect for those guys. This year will be the 50th edition of the Motorcycle race, I heard its going to be something special!

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

No need to turn this into some kind of Sony hating thread. Frankly I would love to hear some criticisms against my Sony (or others) that are more specific or actually founded in reality from people who have used both as that might be helpful in further understanding the decision I'm making. Saying "all Sonys look bad" if you haven't used Sony log or raw yourself isn't very helpful. In this day and age when you can completely turn off sharpening or shoot log or raw and LUT it to nearly match any other camera, it seems a bit questionable to say "everything shot on this whole manufacturer's line looks like this". If you think every Sony camera is never the right tool for the job and can't articulate why then please move on to another thread.

 

[Stephen Nguyen]

I am an FS7 owner and have used the Red Epic Dragon a handful of times. I have to say the difference between the images are by a large margin. Red has really been on top of their game, and if you go to their Shot on Red page their track record speaks for themselves. But that's not to say that Sony's are not capable cinema cameras. I like using the FS7 for fast paced commercial and corporate gigs or for the occasional narrative films because of it's accessibility of ergonomics, XLR preamps, internal ND filters and the SLog3 XAVC codec is actually more robust than people give it credit for. Clients love the Sony look, and surprisingly SLog3 was even a preferred look over the Alexa on HBO's Vinyl. It's all very subjective.

For me, when I started shooting on the Red Epic Dragon, I absolutely fell in love with the image. The rolloff of highlights and the shadow retention (even though it's not a low light camera) are pleasantly detailed and easy on the eyes. For me, the raw color and skin tones are excellent and very easy to grade in post compared to SLog3, which takes much more time and effort to get things to look less clinical and more natural. As for sharpness, it's all very subjective and I feel like Sony's may be sharper but Red's retain better detail, which are two very different things. It also depends on the lenses you're using as some are made for softer and more pleasant rolloff, and others are made to be sharper and more clinical.

The Sony cameras are capable of creating great images too, but there is also a certain magic to Red images that really stand out to me. One great example is a recent film called Room which was nominated for Best Picture. I could have sworn it was shot on 35mm film because everything about the image was beautiful and easy on the eyes, but when I did some research on what they used, it was a Panavised Red Epic Dragon! The same can be applied to when I saw Ex Machina and thought it was shot on an Alexa. Incredible images and I never would have thought they used a Sony F65 and F55. In my opinion, I like them all, they're just tools at the end of the day. But if I had a choice to pick between any camera in the industry to go to war with, it would be a Red, simply because I think it's capable cinema camera and offers so much for a bargain. I hope this makes sense to you from the perspective of a satisfied Sony and eventual Red owner.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

No need to turn this into some kind of Sony hating thread. Frankly I would love to hear some criticisms against my Sony (or others) that are more specific or actually founded in reality from people who have used both as that might be helpful in further understanding the decision I'm making. Saying "all Sonys look bad" if you haven't used Sony log or raw yourself isn't very helpful. In this day and age when you can completely turn off sharpening or shoot log or raw and LUT it to nearly match any other camera, it seems a bit questionable to say "everything shot on this whole manufacturer's line looks like this". If you think every Sony camera is never the right tool for the job and can't articulate why then please move on to another thread.

I've seen beautiful stuff shot on Sony cameras... and at NAB last year, the stuff I saw in Sony's booth was better even than what Red had in their theater, which was pretty impressive. Red's show blew away the Atomos and Canon presentations (partly due to having a better theater, the Atomos theater's image was a bit soft, which probably undermined their presentation a bit).

I also use a Sony camera for my fine art photography... (http://WhiteCranePhotography.com) and have for quite a while. And when I sell off my large format gear, I'll hopefully move up to medium format... which is also dominated by Sony sensors.

But I'm also awaiting a Scarlet-W, both so that I can earn money shooting with it, and so that I can use it for my own stuff, including lugging it around on backcountry treks throughout the Cascades and Rockies, and possibly into the Himalayas later this year...

For stills, it's pretty obvious that the bigger winner for straight up image quality is that Phase One IQ3 series, Red can't touch that stuff. But for cinema, it's hard to imagine not being happy with a Scarlet-W, especially after seeing how much I could get with someone else's Scarlet-X during a workshop where I didn't have time to get the lighting set the way that I wanted it (partly because the other members of the workshop were complete newbies, and didn't have the experience yet to understand what I was asking for, and there wasn't time to explain it).

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

I'm starting to realize that for me it's not so much about which camera is better since clearly in lit environments, the Scarlet-W will be quite a bit better in most of the ways we judge cameras. I want it for that and for the workflow that means I can deliver footage and never have an editor or client decide the color looks fine without consulting me on the grade or even just using the LUT I provided! But looking back to all the jobs I did in the past year there quite a few jobs that would have benefited from having a Scarlet-W, but there are also quite a few lower budget jobs I simply could not have done with the Scarlet-W. So then I need to own extra cameras. Which then means I need to keep the cameras I have and just add on the Scarlet-W which may just take away work from my other cameras... And then maybe if I still have all these cameras I will just end up deciding to use my Sony camera(s) on some jobs simply for the ease of carrying a smaller package that takes less of my time and brainpower on media/power management. Maybe I'm just too practical if I'm sacrificing image quality for convenience, but taking away frustration on set sure helps keep me more sane sometimes. I've done a few run and gun jobs on Epics and Scarlet and I usually seem to end up getting frustrated more than usual even if it's just about how much my back hurts or the shots I missed

 

[Dan Landoni]

meanwhile...I have a client telling me to soften the footage. DSMC Dragon 6k. Second image is ISO1200. Cant wait to see what the DSMC2 can do. Leica R Summilux 35 and Summilux 80. No denoising and a little sharpening in RCX
http://i.imgur.com/kHFk3bs.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rbomCd8.jpg

 

[Sabovic Adis]

I'm starting to realize that for me it's not so much about which camera is better since clearly in lit environments, the Scarlet-W will be quite a bit better in most of the ways we judge cameras. I want it for that and for the workflow that means I can deliver footage and never have an editor or client decide the color looks fine without consulting me on the grade or even just using the LUT I provided! But looking back to all the jobs I did in the past year there quite a few jobs that would have benefited from having a Scarlet-W, but there are also quite a few lower budget jobs I simply could not have done with the Scarlet-W. So then I need to own extra cameras. Which then means I need to keep the cameras I have and just add on the Scarlet-W which may just take away work from my other cameras... And then maybe if I still have all these cameras I will just end up deciding to use my Sony camera(s) on some jobs simply for the ease of carrying a smaller package that takes less of my time and brainpower on media/power management. Maybe I'm just too practical if I'm sacrificing image quality for convenience, but taking away frustration on set sure helps keep me more sane sometimes. I've done a few run and gun jobs on Epics and Scarlet and I usually seem to end up getting frustrated more than usual even if it's just about how much my back hurts or the shots I missed

You can't shoot everything with just a 50 mm lens neither.
Right? :biggrin:

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

You can't shoot everything with just a 50 mm lens neither.
Right? :biggrin:

I'm not sure I follow what you mean

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

(tongue in cheek) I guess there's always this route to follow...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=181&v=ddRLnu0tsK8

 

[Sabovic Adis]

I'm not sure I follow what you mean

I meant picking the right tool for the job.
Keep'em both if You need'em both! :biggrin:

 

[Ryan Farnes]

I found this thread interesting. Among all the issues discussed, I especially found the charts at the end of the doc Phil Holland posted to be useful.

Thanks for the discussion Noah.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Glad you got something out of the discussion, I definitely did too..

I had a chance to grab an ursa mini4.6k without backorders but I think I'm going to stick to waiting for my Scarlet-W after all. I'm a bit concerned about the package now and thinking I might want to switch to a brain since will likely be better and/or cheaper I/O and control options than the base expander and 4.7" LCD after NAB...

 

[Jack Allred]

Here is what I'm talking about, Phil's 100% frame next to a 100% crop of a roughly graded shot with no sharpening or NR from my FS700+7Q shot in 4K Prores LT (don't mind the noise, this was night mostly available light rated in the ISO2000 range if I recall)


Click to view full size

To me the difference is pretty significant, maybe not even something 5k can compensate for... And I'd rather have the option of adding softness through filters or in post than being stuck with it and not being able to get sharp images for reframes etc. Also sometimes it seems like a bit of a waste to record so many pixels with so little detail in them.

This worries me for RAVEN users especially who are new to RED and may not realize their camera will deliver rather soft 4k and for Scarlet-W users like future myself who may have to mandate 5k to combat the softness but then not feel able to go past 50fps when I used to comfortably go to 60fps and 120fps with little downside.

Looks like you used Phil's downconverted 2k image for your 100% crop comparison. Why aren't you using the 100% crop of the 6k image to compare?

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Looks like…

Looks like the correct image to me. Phil posted 100% crops from 6k. One unsharpened and one with sharpening. We're looking at unsharpened images here.

It'e quite fine to battle a number of artifacts via OLPF and get a softer, but cleaner image as a result. That said, I think this approach really benefits from shooting at a noticeably higher resolution after which you scale down.

For me personally, I'd really like that 6k resolution if I really targeted 4k. It will be interesting to see some technical tests of Scarlet W's 5k resolution and how it compares to other cameras in terms of resolving power. The Raven will no doubt create beautiful images, but I don't think it will be a resolution monster. I also think some new Raven owners that just jump onto RED without having done any research will watch the 1:1 image and go 'hmmm'. Not necessarily 'fu*k', but 'hmmm'.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I'm a bit concerned about the package now...

If the packages were targeted to what people what, I think there should have been a brain, 7" touch, 240GB MiniMag package. But since the price reduction isn't THAT much, I'll just buy as individual items.

I was a Raven--->Scarlet W that ordered on the 25th and I've canceled my package too. One less ahead of some of you.

 

[jordan levy]

If the packages were targeted to what people what, I think there should have been a brain, 7" touch, 240GB MiniMag package. But since the price reduction isn't THAT much, I'll just buy as individual items.

I was a Raven--->Scarlet W that ordered on the 25th and I've canceled my package too. One less ahead of some of you.

what made me switch to the pkg is availability of the accessories (and the case added), i think packages will be allocated first before the the i/o modules will be available.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Looks like you used Phil's downconverted 2k image for your 100% crop comparison. Why aren't you using the 100% crop of the 6k image to compare?

This IS from his 100% 2k crop...

Not sure where you are getting that I used a downconverted image. Both images are 1:1 100% crops, but I can see why you might think Phil's was from a downconvert since it's pretty soft, but that's kinda the point. Obviously there is different scene content and subject sizes, but the images do seem to speak for themselves. Obviously it's up to a viewer to decide whether the softer RED image is better or worse, but it is certainly enlightening and in line with what I've seen from footage I've shot on RED and Sony cameras. Frankly I think resolution is not the most important thing but this is certainly important for people to know if they think they want detailed 4k deliverables or want to be able to crop or pan-and-scan 5-6k footage for 4k deliverables or think their 4k crop HFR shots will easily match the resolution of their 5k shots.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Phil posted some of the most helpful responses to some of my questions but I realized I never went back and addressed the further questions/concerns I have:

1. Scarlet-W's available REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios are available in the newest revision of the DSMC Media Operations Guide here:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/red_3/downloads/manuals/DSMC_Media_Ops_Guide/DSMC_Media_Operation_Guide_Rev-V.pdf

This is extremely helpful and enlightening. But what about the many people who don't stumble across this thread and find this and are disappointed when they realize that RED's confusing spec list mislead them. I'm used to it and know I have to dig for actual specs, but for the majority of newer RED users who aren't shooting WS aspect ratios will likely feel a bit mislead or at least confused about what their aspect ratio and framerate options are.

I think a big part of the problem is the way RED lists specs combined with how they notate frame sizes. If they said 2160p WS instead of 4.5k WS it would be fine, but modes seem to be grouped together by frame width which makes sense as horizontal FOV is most relevant, but always listing only the framerate available at the most cropped version of that frame width leaves users with the least possible information about all other frame sizes. I'm sure a lot of new users who don't realize for all 5k modes other than WS they need to look at 4.5k fps specs...

2. I'll write something up on expanded use of 3D LUTs in and out of camera with and without ProRes and eventually DNxHD/HR (not implemented yet in current firmware). Bigger post than I can make here to clarify things, but you can "make" ProRes whatever you want in terms of Color and Gamma Space.

I thought I understood this to mean you have a special knowledge of how to make Prores files bake the LUT, but in another thread you mentioned that that is not what you mean. Could you clarify what you mean and what is current capability and what is possible future features? To clarify are you saying Prores can be Redgamma and take any look adjustments but just not bake a LUT yet? I couldn't get it to be anything but RLF but I was mostly focused on getting it to bake a LUT but it seems clear this is not possible, which is very disappointing.

3. There will be some sort of 4K Module/Expander similar to the concept of the REDCAST Module I imagine.

Yes I also imagined this when I wrote the question, there may be a DSMC2 REDCAST of some kind, but Weapon has been out for a while and there isn't even such a module announced, not to mention it will cost more than a lot of cameras that have this capability built in. It's just disappointing and compounded by the lack of focus magnification while recording so we really lack any way to see all the pixels in our image most of the time.

4. There is an occasional/rare bug where the feed on the LCD/EVF cuts diagonally and appears disjointed. This doesn't effect the recorded image and is solved at the moment through a reboot. This will likely be fixed in a future firmware update.

Is it occasional or rare? It can't be that rare if it happened to me in one short period of use. And it's not that that particular bug is so terrible but it just reminds me that with RED bugs may just be a fact of life as with new firmwares they get squashed but new ones come up so there will likely always be some to contend with. But this may just be a function of the complexity of the menu system and feature-set of the camera along with the constant focus on adding new features which can be a blessing and a curse.

5. If you are talking about a 1:1 recording area during record, yes there currently isn't something like this in the camera. There are however In Camera Focus Tools such as Focus Check, Edge Focus Check, and 1:1 Magnification prior to record. Might be something that can be implemented in a future firmware update if enough people want it.

It might eventually, but given that this has been a limitation through every RED camera ever made and given that everyone has always wanted this badly for 8 years, and anyone who doesn't probably just has gotten too used to not having it, it seems extremely unlikely and maybe just a hard limitation. I mean given that monitor outputs usually (at least in past REDs, but probably also in new ones) actually go out and change modes during non-record focus magnification there is probably a pretty big limitation in the way focus mag is implemented that prevents it from happening during record.

6. The Dragon sensor has a less aggressive OLPF and is inherently sharper from the get go compared to Mysterium-X. However, the big thing you must consider versus the cameras you are currently using is that REDCODE RAW is not processed, sharpened, or noise reduced in camera whatsoever. Don't know about your test in the RED Store, but there's a few ways to work here. For instance scaling 5K captured footage to 4K will yield higher quality/more detailed images than shooting at 4K. Additionally, since you've brought up ProRes output, you can indeed sharpen that in camera if you so desire. I wouldn't recommend going past 25% typically, but it does work like a charm.

Is this something there is some evidence of? From the images you posted in this thread it does seem like there is still a very aggressive OLPF and my Sony FS700 4k footage is sharper by a significant margin and I've never encountered problems with aliasing on that. I guess this is just something to stay aware of and know that 5-6k is required to get 4k delivery that is as detailed as many of the other digital cinema cameras on the market. Perhaps it's also a matter of the default debayer algorithm? Anyone had any lucky with other debayers? That does introduce undesireable complexity in post. I guess there is something to be said though for a strong OLPF and knowing you images will not alias since aliasing/moire is much harder to fix in post and resolution is often talked about as though it makes a bigger difference than it does in 99% of cases. The reality is that even if 5k Dragon isn't all that sharp, a lot of producers and studios will probably still just assume and accept it's better for 4k delivery than an upscaled Alexa for example. It does make me wonder if a lot of the efficiency in the REDCODE codec comes from the fact that it doesn't have to deal with as much high frequency detail as a lot of other systems.

7. 21 seconds last time I timed it. It used to be about twice that, but a firmware update a bit ago brought it down to that level. I've not found this to be a big deal at all on 1.5-2.5 hour battery solutions on set. But if you are used to something you are used to something. The camera does a great deal of things and checks during boot. Future boot time improvements may occur.

Oh ok, it just seemed like ages when I tried it in the store, which is tough when I'm used to cameras that last all day on one small battery and boot up in 5 seconds. I know I'm spoiled but boot times and battery life can be a big deal when shooting more run and gun style since it can mean missing an important shot you can't get back. Here's hoping it improves, but at least it's not R1 level boot times I guess...

8. The nearest thing that's on the horizon for ergonomically minded control is the upcoming DSMC[SUP]2 [/SUP] Side Handle, which is very ergonomic in terms of grabbing the camera by a very DSLR-like (more like a specific medium format handle actually when I think of it). There are many user defined buttons you can set on the new Side Handle, it's just not out yet. Don't know about the touch issues you had in the store, but it depends largely how you press rather than quickly poking.

I only just now saw a picture of this and it looks somewhat promising, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. It would be great if there was a way to hook up any LANC accessory as that would certainly give access to a lot more options. Perhaps one day there will be a way of adding an ergonomic grip to foolcontrol...

9. IR Contamination is vastly reduced to a near non-existent level with the Dragon sensor and all 3 of the currently available OLPFs. This has been personally one of my favorite improvements as it's better than most of the competing systems out there when it comes to color purity and consistency, which is huge deal. Color out of Dragon is pretty much ranks 1st or 2nd place when it comes to currently available digital cinema cameras depending on which side of the fence you land. You are correct that there is no mechanic ND in camera. Focal reducers in the form of say E-Mount will not work with these cameras. That doesn't necessarily mean that Focal Reducers for all types of lenses don't work. It's a Super 35mm system already however, sound more like you are aiming for the light gathering and FOV benefits of the reducer perhaps.

The improved IR performance will definitely make things a lot easier when using ND. Fortunately the improved highlight DR will also reduce the need for ND. Given the quality and prevalence of Full Frame 35mm lenses, a focal reducer is a really powerful way to add sensitivity and a larger format look to a smaller camera. Again I've probably been spoiled but my 16-24 f1.3 zoom lens has proven to be indispensable in light-limited environments...
A small part of the reason I went for Scarlet-W over Raven is I'm holding out hope for a future focal-reducer mount or maybe an improved motion mount that has a clear mode...