Sugestion for RED TEAM - Higher Frame Rates to buffer

[Humberto Ramos]

Hi RED TEAM,


I don´t know if it will be possible, but here is a small request:


The new Dragon can do 1-100 fps in 6K, 1-120 fps in 5K, 4.5K, 1-150 fps in 4K, 1-200 fps in 3K
and 1-300 fps in 2K, all this continuously.

Well, this is great and no other camera can do this (except phantom 4k, but its a different camera).

The problem is that if we are shooting content in 4K and we need, lets say 200fps or even 300fps in some moment, we will have do drop resolution down to be able to do this or will have to hire a phantom 4k…

Is there a way you read team visionaries to think in a solution to able the dragon to shot 200, 300 or even more fps in 4k or higher resolutions, using pre-rec buffer mode just for 10 or 20 seconds?

It would be amazing if you could and it would put dragon in an even bigger League...

The same applies to other MX sensor cameras...

I believe 4K is the Future and the Future is now

 

[Uros Zuraj]

they can't put every thing, they need something to sell next year
but yeah that would be awesome. 8-10seconds is more then enough for most things if you are doing action stuff and action edit. learned that from fs-700

 

[Humberto Ramos]

I never used the fs700, but I agree, 300 fps in 10 seconds buffer in 4k or above with end trigger like the fs 700 or phantom would be amazing and the competition would become milles away...

 

[Alsone]

Something else to watch is the European Broadcasters have yet to agree a broadcast standard for 4K.

There has been talk of frame rates as high as 300fps on forums plus they're are currently looking at the best expanded colour space.

Have to wonder if RED cameras will be able to match the new colour spaces and frame rates.

 

[Humberto Ramos]

I have no doubt that RED cameras will fit UHD or 4K broadcast specks, my issue is that UHD or 4K boradcast will need content and 1080p its not in their specks, so we will have to delivery in UHD or 4K and in 4K we will only have 1-150fps, so slow motion will be not as slow as in 1080p.

With 4K TV's now on the market, in near future distributor, broadcaster, etc, will need content for those TV's, I don´t know if on Blu Ray's, or something else, but then you will not have in that content slow motion (200 or 300fps) shot on RED at 4K.

I do wildlife and still not have a Drangon, even EPIC MX, only RED ONE, but In near future, maybe 6 months will have money to buy an DRAGON or two.

I shot everything at least at 50fps (PAL) and when I buy the dragon, then I have no intent to film in less resolution than 4K, cause I'm thinking in the future, but In 4K no 300fps...

300fps in 4K in pre-rec buffer for 10 sec would be great, if not, will have to consider a phantom.

 

[Max M.]

I think thats a great idea! "HFR Buffer module". A module you click on the back with a enough ram for say 10 seconds of realtime capture, with framerates in 4K up to 300 FPS with an end trigger. I don't know if it's possibly, but it would be an interesting option

 

[Phil Holland]

Something else to watch is the European Broadcasters have yet to agree a broadcast standard for 4K.

There has been talk of frame rates as high as 300fps on forums plus they're are currently looking at the best expanded colour space.

Don't believe them crazy folks.

The immediate future is:
- 23.976p
- 24p
- 25p
- 29.97p
- 30p
- 50p
- 59.94p
- 60p
- 120p

Don't know how immediate 120p broadcast is going to be, but I think you'll see UHD 4K/4K HD at 60p sooner than you'd think.

If this is truly this open across platforms and delivery methods, I think I might be moving over to actual 24p capture again. So sick of 23.976

 

[Humberto Ramos]

Don't know how immediate 120p broadcast is going to be, but I think you'll see UHD 4K/4K HD at 60p sooner than you'd think.

If this is truly this open across platforms and delivery methods, I think I might be moving over to actual 24p capture again. So sick of 23.976

Thanks Phil, but when you say 24p you are talking in US right? Or do you think that even in europe the standard will come to 24p?

 

[Humberto Ramos]

Phil,

About my main issue, in your opinion the 300fps bursh to buffer in 4K would be usefull?

 

[Humberto Ramos]

I think thats a great idea! "HFR Buffer module". A module you click on the back with a enough ram for say 10 seconds of realtime capture, with framerates in 4K up to 300 FPS with an end trigger. I don't know if it's possibly, but it would be an interesting option

I would prefer a firmware upgrade, it would be cheaper

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks Phil, but when you say 24p you are talking in US right? Or do you think that even in europe the standard will come to 24p?

Yes. Traditionally speaking our films here were and are shot 24 frames per second, also projected that way. These days though the 23.976p based on the NTSC standard is extremely common for broadcast purposes.

However, it's the future. Flying cars, jetpacks, frame rate freedom.

I would prefer a firmware upgrade, it would be cheaper

About my main issue, in your opinion the 300fps bursh to buffer in 4K would be usefull?

I'm all for higher frame rates. I have a severe love for slow motion. However, what people are asking for in a burst mode would very likely require a hardware upgrade on the Red DSMC cameras.

However, if I know Red, I'd bet they have something in the works. And it likely won't be burst mode. It would probably just be faster frame rates overall. Just hard to see how they can implement it at the moment. There are certain things that can be done software side to squeeze out more, but this might be a hardware solution via a new camera brain or module even.

I think 300fps is nice, but I'd aim higher with a global 2X-2.5X increase from current specifications Mostly to stay insanely ahead of the competition and encroach on the specialty market.

 

[Brian Merlen]

+1 for encroachment

 

[Humberto Ramos]

... However, what people are asking for in a burst mode would very likely require a hardware upgrade on the Red DSMC cameras.

However, if I know Red, I'd bet they have something in the works. And it likely won't be burst mode. It would probably just be faster frame rates overall. Just hard to see how they can implement it at the moment. There are certain things that can be done software side to squeeze out more, but this might be a hardware solution via a new camera brain or module even.

Probably using the buffer and pre-rec mode would be possible with software, even if we could only use higher compression ratios. If Dragon does have buffer to record continuously 100fps at 6k (dont know at what compression) it would be easy to make 300fps bursh mode at 4k o even 5k with the help of pre-rec...

 

[paulherrin]

originally there were specced burst modes...

 

[steve green]

Hi RED TEAM,


I don´t know if it will be possible, but here is a small request:


The new Dragon can do 1-100 fps in 6K, 1-120 fps in 5K, 4.5K, 1-150 fps in 4K, 1-200 fps in 3K
and 1-300 fps in 2K, all this continuously.

Well, this is great and no other camera can do this (except phantom 4k, but its a different camera).

The problem is that if we are shooting content in 4K and we need, lets say 200fps or even 300fps in some moment, we will have do drop resolution down to be able to do this or will have to hire a phantom 4k…

Is there a way you read team visionaries to think in a solution to able the dragon to shot 200, 300 or even more fps in 4k or higher resolutions, using pre-rec buffer mode just for 10 or 20 seconds?

It would be amazing if you could and it would put dragon in an even bigger League...

The same applies to other MX sensor cameras...

I believe 4K is the Future and the Future is now

+1 on a burst mode, that would be a creative and marketing coup!

 

[Todd T]

The pre-record buffer on Epic/Scarlet is a circular buffer that exisits as a file on the SSD not as internal ram in the camera.
Therefore it is limited to the bandwith of the current I/O channels of the camera.

It is not likely that this can be done with a firmware upgrade.
Think of how much internal ram would be needed to buffer 5 or 10 seconds of 120 FPS 6K uncompressed data.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This exact same suggestion and subsequent discussion has popped up several times, even dating back to before the RED One started shipping. There are some technical limitations here that are not being considered. It's not always about buffering, but may be due more to the actual bandwidth available. If the 100fps maximum at 6KFF is due to the peak limit of internal throughput, adding on half a TB of buffer RAM isn't going to make one bit of difference. What about the cycle rates of the sensor? What if cycling the entire raster only allows for 100Hz operation? Well, not much else we can do without a new sensor and companion hardware.

It's nice to think about and it would be interesting to see some official clarification from RED. However, I know they're giving us all that they can from the camera. This is not Canon or Panasonic where cameras are intentionally crippled so they can sell a diverse range of camera models at an equally diverse range of prices.

In the past when this same request has come up, it's always been that the frame rates were limited by internal throughput and/ or the sensor's cycling abilities. However, there have been times where faster media and/ or a RAM buffer of some sort could have allowed for different compression ratios.

To my knowledge, the only camera that was ever to have higher speed bursts was the 2/3" Scarlet.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I have emailed some people at directly about this before too at Red. Lowering the height of the frame is what helps the refresh rates I believe since its progressive. Thats why the WS can go faster, less height. One idea I had for them was what if the burst mode was extremely short duration and super compressed Redcode wise? Would that help? But the reality is the refresh rate might just be the clinch on why there is no progress (that we can see) on a burst mode.


Also as someone who is into high speed shooting, I have to say if I can get by with Epic for what I am doing, I do. The fact it keeps rolling and trigger doesn't need to be dead on is really wonderful. Its just sometimes obviously we all need rates faster then Epic, which is where Red having a burst mode in cam would be brilliant. Hopefully one day they implement something like this, even if its on the next camera system or 2, I'm in for the long haul anyway I ain't got nothing but time.

Personally for me looking at how over developed other brands are, with no upgradability, I am scarred to even buy another brand camera. I didn't do well on my Scarlet at all and would of struck out completely had I not been able to score a cheap Epic upgrade and now finally get some cash back. Made me realize how easily the same thing could happen to me on another brand and I just end up in the hole completely...

 

[Todd T]

The fact it keeps rolling and trigger doesn't need to be dead on is really wonderful. Its just sometimes obviously we all need rates faster then Epic, which is where Red having a burst mode in cam would be brilliant.

That was a design goal for RED. Record until your media fills up.

The only other cameras that record HFR 4K at the moment are the Phantom 4K or the For-A FT-ONE and these are limited to 64GB of high speed internal RAM.

Your takes will always be limited to the size of the internal RAM.

This is *Not* SSD storage. It is *Not* expandable.

It *is* expensive. It *is* power hungry. It generates heat.

That is the compromise for higher frame rates.

 

[Humberto Ramos]

That was a design goal for RED. Record until your media fills up.

The only other cameras that record HFR 4K at the moment are the Phantom 4K or the For-A FT-ONE and these are limited to 64GB of high speed internal RAM.

You takes always be limited to the size of the internal RAM.

This is *Not* SSD storage. It is *Not* expandable.

It *is* expensive. It *is* power hungry. It generates heat.

That is the compromise for higher frame rates.

Agree, but I'm not asking 900 or 1000 fps, I'm asking for 300 in 4k...
If dragon does 100 in 6k, why not 300 in 4k? Or even 200?
Probably 100fps in 6k uses more buffer then 300 a 4k. ..