Subscriptions

[Björn Benckert]

"Unlike cloud based software, DaVinci Resolve Studio does not require a connection to the internet and there are no monthly subscription fees. DaVinci Resolve Studio is only $299, which is 50% less than the cost of popular cloud subscriptions. Plus, you get full nonlinear editing, advanced color correction, Fusion effects and motion graphics, and Fairlight professional audio tools, all included in the one easy to buy solution. It’s like getting 4 high end professional applications for the cost of one!"

Davinchi Resolve and the BM payment model is not really comparable to any thing else out there. BM use DR to lure people into buying video cards, colorgrading consoles, editing keyboards, singnal converters, montors, cameras, and all kinds of other tech. A very successful strategy that few believed would work. Those that only create apps and not hardware can simply not follow their path.

For BM it simply so that the more people getting on DR the bigger client base they get for their tech. But the game is changing quite rapidly. I think its not too many generations of OS updates and hardware development until all computers have HDR 12Bit well calibrated screens and very much 8k capability for rending... Then what will they charge us for?

It was quite a big change for them when pretty much all VTR stuff just was taken out of the equation. Then really few needed a capture card any more. Instead only monitoring. Then they made a quick jump and started to make cameras, which possibly was a good move. But shortly we will not need special video cards for playback, lut boxes, and lots of other stuff they sell to do proper post. The consoles and keyboards alone will not really make things float. Lot of people are fine using resolve with regular pen / tablet / mouse / keyboard or other no BM solutions.

So it will be interesting to see how they move forward. The "buy a dongle and get free lifetime updates" demands that they are super creative of other departments.

It seems you might have a problem with it. You have identified exactly what is wrong with the subscription model as done by Adobe. There is no incentive for them to improve. If you had a perpetual license and a choice to pay for an upgrade OR NOT, they would have to strive to make that upgrade useful to you. Now they can just sit on their asses and dole out whatever slop they want.

I’m working on a project with PP now and I’m shocked at how little is has improved in the couple of years since I switched to Resolve given the enormous amounts of money they are hauling in with subscriptions.

One thing I don’t understand, since all subscribers get everything and there is no need to support old versions or have backward compatibility, Adobe is in a unique position to dead end this version and start from scratch with a whole new build. Why haven’t they? Or when will they?

Instead of demeaning their current subscribers with half-price offers to new subs, why not get to work and create the next great editing suite and dazzle the shit out of everyone? Because they don’t have to...

Dont know if its just a rumour. But I'm told its one and the same lead designer / programer that has pretty much made avid, imovie, fcp7, premiere, fcpx. And basically jumped between all these companies and updated his code on the way. It should then be the explanation that all these apps are far from doing linear progress in development. All stand still and one jump forward... and according to the rumour the one that makes leaps is where he is currently working... Sounds more than a bit crazy and I don't know where I got the story from. Possibly some one here can confirm, or tell us the story about that.

 

[Brian Timmons]

its one and the same lead designer / programer that has pretty much made avid, imovie, fcp7, premiere, fcpx. And basically jumped between all these companies and updated his code on the way. It should then be the explanation that all these apps are far from doing linear progress in development. All stand still and one jump forward... and according to the rumour the one that makes leaps is where he is currently working... Sounds more than a bit crazy and I don't know where I got the story from. Possibly some one here can confirm, or tell us the story about that.

I believe you're thinking of Randy Ubillos. You're correct for all the programs listed above except for Avid.
He created the first versions (early 90's) of Premiere but moved on to create FCP at Macromedia (or Keygrip as it was called then) through when it was bought by Apple around 1998. He continued developing FCP and also created software like iMovie, Aperature, and later FCP X.

Ubillos ended a 20 year run at Apple and retired in 2015.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...tor-randy-ubillos-leaves-apple-after-20-years

I highly recommend seeing the doc "Off the Tracks" about the drama surrounding FCP X.
Ubillos and a couple of other ex Apple engineers are interviewed. It's very well made.

https://offthetracksmovie.com

A gentleman by the name of Bill Warner was the inventor of the Avid.

The stories behind the scenes are always fascinating and Warner had to work through considerable
software and hardware limitations being at the very early stages (late 80's) of the Digital Video revolution.

Both men created very powerful tools that were of course very influential for media and human expression in general.

Addendum- Lucasfilm created the Editdroid debuting in 1984 (same year the 1st Mac was released) as perhaps the 1st NLE.
It used laserdisc as a means of delivering video. Avid eventually bought it (the software) from Lucasfilm and integrated it into Media Composer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EditDroid

Back to the original discussion.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Fabricio Morato]

IMO, the subscription model makes sense for individuals who are starting out/students. You can pay the subscription fee with, hopefully, one job.
For companies and individuals who have been working a long time, the math works against you. Simply because you don't *need* to upgrade every year or so your software (rare occasions when maybe a new codec/camera just works on the new software).
And its likely that you can use your current software for a couple of years, if not more.

What I think its silly, is for Adobe to be throwing every year these new gimmicky features, that works OK on the demo, but not with real footage, and deliver you some buggy software that will take a few updates do make it stable enough.
But I guess is not that marketable saying this: "No new features, we just fixed every bug this year".

Buying and owning a software makes more sense, IMO.


And just to add to the conversation that someone was saying: "Adobe tests doubling the price of its Lightroom and Photoshop plan"

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18526985/adobe-creative-cloud-lightroom-photoshop-plan-price-hike

I know that this plan is really cheap in the US, but doubling overnight is a lot.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

That is their digital marketing platform. Pretty common stuff.

So do you have it turned on or turned off in Creative Cloud settings?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

So, Adobe decision to discontinue old versions of CC software is interesting. For some, probably not a big deal. For others, perhaps could be a problem. As many of you know, Adobe had an issue with Dolby license and had to pull earlier versions of their software that used it until they were able to update those versions and strip out the Dolby. These things do happen. Avid had the issue with Script Sync which their license ran out and then it took forever to negotiate a new deal but it's finally back. But, once again, this points to the challenges of these models. In many cases, being on the latest and greatest version is a good thing. Sometimes you can't be. Having access to older versions has always been useful. This happens with Apple too. They don't have a list of older versions. What if you need FCPX 10.3 for one reason or another? How do you get it if you didn't. archive it or have access to it at the time of its relevance? Media Composer is pretty good. You can go way back.

What's everyone's take here? Not a big deal? Sort of a big deal? This is a huge problem?

 

[David Peterson]

Stocks as of today (minus BMD, although I put a little blip about their earnings from wikipedia)

Not that useful to list their price over a 24hr period, ideally you should have shared images showing their performance over the past year or even longer

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

As many of you know, Adobe had an issue with Dolby license and had to pull earlier versions of their software that used it until they were able to update those versions and strip out the Dolby.

If you can't possess a discrete installer for an application, turn your back. But, I guess we can thank Adobe for spurring competitors, including open source projects.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Not that useful to list their price over a 24hr period, ideally you should have shared images showing their performance over the past year or even longer

There’s more info in those graphics than a 24 hour period.

 

[Med D]

CS6 was my last Adobe purchase. I still have an external SSD boot drive into Mavericks that will run it when needed, but I use FCP for video now. Adobe is a dumpster fire of a company and the switch to subscription was the last straw. I can't imagine anyone doing a worse job of integrating different (acquired) products than Adobe, plus lets not forget the abomination of Flash. Not since Rhapsody has there been a more invasive and obnoxious piece of junk code.

One thing that is a real problem with subscription and even clinging to CS6 -- once you are no longer full-time, either retired or perhaps part-time, it will no longer make sense to pay the subscription cost. That means your footage will not be accessible to you. For some that won't be an issue, but I don't want to see my projects all turn to stone because I can't justify Adobes continuing cost. I know, time moves on and all, but with subscription CC you are basically losing all Adobe project formats in one big step.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

So.........who owns here what...or who.




https://m.dpreview.com/news/7744137...pps-could-lead-to-lawsuits-from-third-parties

 

[Steve Sherrick]

So.........who owns here what...or who.




https://m.dpreview.com/news/7744137...pps-could-lead-to-lawsuits-from-third-parties

Dolby was in fact one of the third parties but the lawsuit aspect of things would be news to me. Especially if it was indeed what that article is saying. I thought it was simply Dolby's licensing with Adobe ran its course and that Dolby was now imbedded in OS, hence no need to continue licensing deal. What that meant for end users though is that Adobe had to strip out the Dolby component for any installers still available that utilized it. But here's what I don't get and why maybe this was more complex than originally indicated. Why would it affect older versions of software? Isn't the licensing still good for those versions, just not anything developed beyond the licensing agreement? Maybe I don't understand licensing enough, hence my ignorance here.

Either way, this is pointing out some serious flaws in the business model. Again, for those who stay absolutely current all of the time, you'll probably be far less impacted by these things and if you are someone that uses the software all of the time, the subscription price with everything it includes is probably very cost effective.

I will throw out this one scenario. It's totally hypothetical and most likely won't happen because it's not smart for either party. Imagine a rift develops between RED and Adobe. For one reason or another, Adobe pulls native R3D support. But, not only does it affect new versions, but they go back into their previous installers and strip it out of that too. So, if you ever need to get a previous installer (system crash or something), you no longer have R3D support. Far fetched, I know. Do I think it will happen? No. But, is it possible? Some may say, fine if that happens I'll just move over to another NLE. Fair enough. But what if you have built your post pipeline around Adobe suite of products and suddenly there is a big problem with that workflow moving forward.

It might seem like I have an axe to grind with Adobe. It's not so much Adobe as much as it is this subscription model that takes some of the control out of your hands. And some of these problems are not just limited to subscription model but software licensing in general. I recognize that. I'm just trying to call attention to some of the downsides. We know the upsides. Getting the entire Adobe suite for $50/month is a no-brainer for anyone that uses it professionally on a regular basis.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Dolby was in fact one of the third parties but the lawsuit aspect of things would be news to me.

Business model design on enforced dependency.

Fear tactics are common in herd management.

Corporatosaurus statement translation:

"If you don't do what we tell you danger awaits you"



"If you continue using older tools you may be facing a lawsuit" goes into my "Age of Idiocy" list.

 

[DJ Meyer]

After initial skepticism I've been pretty happy with Adobe CC overall. The cost is a drop in the ocean compared to all of the other software licensing costs we have. Not to mention hardware, etc.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

After initial skepticism I've been pretty happy with Adobe CC overall. The cost is a drop in the ocean compared to all of the other software licensing costs we have. Not to mention hardware, etc.

Not sure anyone is disputing the value. To me, so far, that has never been the issue. At least not up to this point. A huge price increase which holds people hostage, now that would be an issue in terms of cost. It's some of these other downsides we have been discussing about this particular approach to licensing software.

I think the easiest way to illustrate it is if they took something vital to your workflow away and then eventually removed installers that had those features you need and threatened that you may be sued if you continued to use those old versions, does that impact your commitment to using those tools? Whether it's Adobe, BMD, Avid, Apple, whomever.

The one thing that Adobe's CC model does not give you is the ability to stop at a particular version and not pay any more money. They force you to continue paying, even if you no longer need any new updates or product features.

 

[DJ Meyer]

The one thing that Adobe's CC model does not give you is the ability to stop at a particular version and not pay any more money. They force you to continue paying, even if you no longer need any new updates or product features.

I guess to me its just not that big a concern. The "don't need updates and bug fixes or features" is always an argument people make but in practice I can't remember a software that was important enough to worry about that I also didn't keep on a recent version if only for compatibility reasons. And if some day Adobe says its now 10x the price and we are not going to do jack shit to keep it current, then will switch to another NLE. Not that big a deal really. Already use several as it is, depending on project.

I don't think the FCPx and Resolve comparisons are fair really when looking at business model. Those are both paid for by hardware sales. It would be a shame if only hardware companies were capable of sustaining a software product by subsidy or benevolence. That tends to end badly for beloved but non-profitable software packages in the long run.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

"I'm independently hooked on 466273 bills annually while enjoying my freedom within confines of a group thought-pattern design and smartphone battery remaining time, through exercising my right to predictable behaviour. "

Urban Human 2.0
2020 A.D.




Urban Human-oid
2045 A.D.

"I am detecting excitement by awaiting my firmware update, permit and directions over iPatch in order to rent a bathroom and realize adequate unloading of my intestinal by-products, beneficial for optimizing my daily routine, in order to achieve superior productivity, thus rewarding me with sufficient credits to cover the oxygen tax."




McFly throws the two-wheel "hoverboard" contraption into the trash and runs back into DeLorean.


...