Robert Frank
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amen to that.
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Steve Jobs speaks about Flash
- Thread starter Brandon Kraemer
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amen to that.
chrislancaster
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Adobe products are really amazing and they are keeping up if not surpassing apple in many ways
64 bit AE PS etc.. those are great tools
64 bit AE PS etc.. those are great tools
Robert Frank
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Same here. My year old MBpro gets crazy hot and cranks up the fans when viewing flash content.
If "King Steve Jobs" was only interested in market share, he would build his computers to a much lower price point like Dell, by keeping prices high he limits his market share growth alot.
OS X market share would grow exponetially if Mac Minis were $350 and Macbooks were $500, like some Windows machines.
Rick Burnett
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I'm gonna have to disagree on multiple points.
(1) Being bleeding edge doesn't give you reliable products with proven track records of working. People in a business do not want to be early adopters if it means they are going to deal with problems and pitfalls from a time untested technology. I prefer to have a reliable system that might not be bleeding edge in every aspect so I can get more done instead of dealing with broken drivers, incompatible hardware, and sometimes, no hardware or software to use new features. I prefer a system that works as advertised.
(2) I used a NexT at university as well. It wasn't visionary to me as well, but I will say this, I think Objective C is a lot better than C++ and I am glad it came along to the OSX world. It has its problems as well, but from an API standpoint, I find it superior. Having coded on Linux with a variety of toolkits (but mostly GTK), on windows with win32, and the MFC and OWL C++ windows libraries, and OSX with Cocoa and Carbon, I do prefer Cocoa the most with the Core Foundation classes which are well thought out.
Apple was able to bring a UNIX subsystem as an OS for the home user. To me, being a power user, this bridged both worlds for me. Their quartz window manager was so good, windows copied it much later in terms of how items are rendered in the 3D card.
(3) Apple DOES sometimes come out ahead of the pack with better technologies. FW is better than USB. They've already started using DisplayPort technology. And their touch screen on the iPhone when it came out had no competition in the US. These are just off the top of my head, I know there are more. It's funny too, because they are often accused of supporting newer technologies too soon and getting rid of the legacy interfaces.
(4) I am calling COMPLETE shenanigans on the DAW world. Logic Pro 9 is one of THE BEST daws that you can use. It is WELL AHEAD of ProTools. It's more efficient than all of the other major contenders (ProTools, Digital Performer, Live) and is already a 64-bit app now so you can address more that 4 Gig if you chose. I own all of the major DAWS on my mac and have experience with Reason, FL Studio, Cakewalk, Cubase and Samplitude on the PC side. In my opinion, Apple is FAR above the competition with Logic in terms of the whole package. AND they reduced the price of Logic tremendously. If you want me to be specific, I can, as I know ALL TOO WELL the limitations of the other DAWs. (But don't get me started on SOUND TRACK PRO, it is absolutely horrible. I can explain the ways for that as well!!!!)
(5) Macbook Pro's have i7 chips in them if you so desire, what exactly is newer than that? You can get SSD drives for them. Just because they don't have USB3? Most devices don't even SUPPORT USB3 yet. I personally hope they skip right past USB3 and go to the optical system Intel has been working on. USB3 STILL uses the CPU for operations unlike FW.
I could probably go on, but the point here is that Apple does make good reliable hardware with an OS that I find works VERY WELL. I am productive. More than most people. That is not to say other people are not productive with a PC, they are, I just like Apple's model better on that front.
With the iPhone, I am the opposite. I understand the many reasons why they are going down this path, I don't agree with it. That said, the market will decide. If they can refine Android some more, and continue with the cool features and performance, I think it will really put a cut into the iPhone. The ONLY thing that is going to fix this is competition.
Apple has ALWAYS been about a consistent experience. Like their UI guide they released so long ago. It's a part of who they are, and anyone who is surprised by this, welcome to Apple. The problem is, not everyone likes that. I used to, when I was younger, but for me, the computer and the OS is like sound in a movie, you only notice it when something is wrong
I'd rather worry more about my creative content then why the application I am trying to use keeps crashing. 
Craig W. Bickerstaff
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Apple have always advocated open standards when it comes to web, Prores is an editing codec designed for final cut pro it's hardly the same thing.
Also ogg vorbis and theora are garbage.
I'm gonna have to disagree on multiple points.
(1) Being bleeding edge doesn't give you reliable products with proven track records of working. People in a business do not want to be early adopters if it means they are going to deal with problems and pitfalls from a time untested technology. I prefer to have a reliable system that might not be bleeding edge in every aspect so I can get more done instead of dealing with broken drivers, incompatible hardware, and sometimes, no hardware or software to use new features. I prefer a system that works as advertised.
(2) I used a NexT at university as well. It wasn't visionary to me as well, but I will say this, I think Objective C is a lot better than C++ and I am glad it came along to the OSX world. It has its problems as well, but from an API standpoint, I find it superior. Having coded on Linux with a variety of toolkits (but mostly GTK), on windows with win32, and the MFC and OWL C++ windows libraries, and OSX with Cocoa and Carbon, I do prefer Cocoa the most with the Core Foundation classes which are well thought out.
Apple was able to bring a UNIX subsystem as an OS for the home user. To me, being a power user, this bridged both worlds for me. Their quartz window manager was so good, windows copied it much later in terms of how items are rendered in the 3D card.
(3) Apple DOES sometimes come out ahead of the pack with better technologies. FW is better than USB. They've already started using DisplayPort technology. And their touch screen on the iPhone when it came out had no competition in the US. These are just off the top of my head, I know there are more. It's funny too, because they are often accused of supporting newer technologies too soon and getting rid of the legacy interfaces.
(4) I am calling COMPLETE shenanigans on the DAW world. Logic Pro 9 is one of THE BEST daws that you can use. It is WELL AHEAD of ProTools. It's more efficient than all of the other major contenders (ProTools, Digital Performer, Live) and is already a 64-bit app now so you can address more that 4 Gig if you chose. I own all of the major DAWS on my mac and have experience with Reason, FL Studio, Cakewalk, Cubase and Samplitude on the PC side. In my opinion, Apple is FAR above the competition with Logic in terms of the whole package. AND they reduced the price of Logic tremendously. If you want me to be specific, I can, as I know ALL TOO WELL the limitations of the other DAWs. (But don't get me started on SOUND TRACK PRO, it is absolutely horrible. I can explain the ways for that as well!!!!)
(5) Macbook Pro's have i7 chips in them if you so desire, what exactly is newer than that? You can get SSD drives for them. Just because they don't have USB3? Most devices don't even SUPPORT USB3 yet. I personally hope they skip right past USB3 and go to the optical system Intel has been working on. USB3 STILL uses the CPU for operations unlike FW.
I could probably go on, but the point here is that Apple does make good reliable hardware with an OS that I find works VERY WELL. I am productive. More than most people. That is not to say other people are not productive with a PC, they are, I just like Apple's model better on that front.
With the iPhone, I am the opposite. I understand the many reasons why they are going down this path, I don't agree with it. That said, the market will decide. If they can refine Android some more, and continue with the cool features and performance, I think it will really put a cut into the iPhone. The ONLY thing that is going to fix this is competition.
Apple has ALWAYS been about a consistent experience. Like their UI guide they released so long ago. It's a part of who they are, and anyone who is surprised by this, welcome to Apple. The problem is, not everyone likes that. I used to, when I was younger, but for me, the computer and the OS is like sound in a movie, you only notice it when something is wrong
No major disagreements with your views, I just like Nuendo better (way more expensive though), and would like to see Apple develop better hardware instead of leaving the good stuff to 3rd parties.
I don't think being the lowest priced ticket in town ever gets you anything more than defects and a bad rap,
so they should be going the other way in a big way...
Why not a 3D display on a macbook Pro?
A 4K desktop monitor?
A fully integrated Stereo 3D solution on the Mac Pro...
Realtime 3D raytracing...
64 core Mac Pro...
Streaming 4K res + surround movies to the home over broadband, or "open resolution" AV...
A computer that does work for you that you don't have to program...
True flexible OLED displays to roll up under your arm and replace paper...
... there's too much gravy on the table today to leave the Turkey dry till the next supper!
I know they say the real money is all about the apps and iTunes and being a mobile company,
but I think they forgot about the smokin-hot Gear that could differentiate them from the Custom Builder again...
:frown2:
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Gavin Greenwalt
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The probability that we'll update our website to HTML 5 in the next year is pretty close to 0.
Sure NY Times and YouTube will go HTML 5 in the near term. But the millions of smaller sites aren't going to waste time on developing both HTML5/Flash. Flash is on every desktop on earth. HTML5 is only supported selectively. H264 isn't available on firefox.
If Apple wants to host a duplicate copy of our reel and offer HTML5 player code then we'll happily look into offering both. Until then the iPad and iPhone will be incomplete.
Sure NY Times and YouTube will go HTML 5 in the near term. But the millions of smaller sites aren't going to waste time on developing both HTML5/Flash. Flash is on every desktop on earth. HTML5 is only supported selectively. H264 isn't available on firefox.
If Apple wants to host a duplicate copy of our reel and offer HTML5 player code then we'll happily look into offering both. Until then the iPad and iPhone will be incomplete.
Rick Burnett
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True, people like different programs for different reasons. My personal approach was finding something that worked in most cases. For instance, I write in Logic Pro, but then I put together the mix in ProTools so that I can pass the mix along to the mastering house and not have issues with OMF files or what have you. Unfortunately, the industry as a whole works in ProTools more than any other system so I use it to just reduce the number of headaches. If I never had to use an AVID (digidesign division) program again I would be happy. Talk about pissing you off. Almost EVERY other DAW provides automatic latency compensation on their native apps, but not ProTools. (Nor offline bounce).
For some things it is about need. I don't want to pay for 3D on my MacBookPro (or my Mac Pro for that matter). It's already $3k (each) as it is. I didn't even buy the SSD because it was getting too expensive for me. A lot of the things you mention are awesome, but they are not mature. I don't want to be Apple's beta tester. I buy their machines to do a job that I need. Things like 3D are so much if flux right now, so brand new, I'd rather them NOT lock into something.
What if apple had chose HDDVD? And BlueRay on computers is a big pain at the moment due to copy protections. I'm already pissed that apple took off the composite functionality that I used for live shows I do.
I'd rather instead of apple worry about chasing every awesome thing out there, they pick and chose the ones that benefit professionals most on their professional line, but not compromise quality. Neither my Mac Book Pro or Mac Pro has ever gone down. I use them both profusely.
Shawn Nelson
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Shawn, you managed to respond in those 5 seconds it took me from writing my post, posting it, reading it, realizing my mistake and deleting the post again.
You just scored yourself 10 points for keyboard skills
lol, zing!
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Jeff Kilgroe
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HTML5 is supported on current versions of Safari, Opera and Firefox. It's in the IE9 beta that is due to release within the next 60 days. It's new, and HTML5 actually hasn't even been finalized yet. However, all the main browsers are scrambling to have it implemented ASAP. There's still a few glitches and inconsistencies until it's finalized -- for example, YouTube HTML5 support doesn't get along with FireFox right now.
Rick Burnett
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But they also don't support all features. I'll admit I've not looked into the HTML5 too deeply as I want to wait for it to smooth out in terms of availability and functionality.
I wish they just had a basic set of functions that they said, either you support all these or you don't. But it is not written like that, since it is HTML, so you are always stuck if a few browsers do not support a feature, you can't use it if you want to be universally usable OR you have to support more than one page per browser.
This is what has always annoyed me about PNG files. I'd really like to use them, unfortunately, they are not supported in all browsers
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Jeff Kilgroe
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The clients that I have built and/or maintain sites for are all wanting their sites to work with the iPad. So I'm working on those lately, it's actually keeping me away from my other iPad/iPhone development, but it pays. So not everyone is thinking like that. For building a new site, it's so easy to create Flash and HTML5 concurrently, I would have a hard time charging extra or justifying it and I'm seeing that most other web designers who are up on all this are now building HTML5 and FLASH support concurrently and only charging an extra 5% to 10% to do so. By the end of this year, I don't see too many people still supporting Flash for advanced web functionality. By then, HTML5 will be solidified and all the major browsers will be supporting it. IE9 even has GPU acceleration for graphics functions HTML5 now in the current beta. Oh, but what about all the people who won't just download the new version of their browser? F'k 'em. What do you mean they won't upgrade? Anyone who visits Flash sites has to be up to date most of the time, so they're already used to it. All the major browsers check for updates... No biggie.
R.I.P. Flash... It was fun while it lasted. :violin:
Milan Spasic
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Ever wonder why Apple products simply always work?
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Jeff Kilgroe
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That's the way browsers are... HTML is developed with the intent of having universal support from compliant browser software. However, it's always been interpreted somewhat differently between the different browser software developers. It's been this way since the beginning, and it seems that it may stay this way for a while, even after HTML5. So web developers will have to continue with the practice of detecting various browsers and tweaking page code to comply with various browsing environments. Same shit, different HTML revision.
Support will improve a lot over the next few months as this all solidifies.
Flash isn't going to die overnight and HTML5 isn't going to take over right away either. For devices like the iPhone / iPad, they are transitional I guess you could say. Forward thinking in some ways, but can be problematic for users at times right now. Personally, what I find more limiting on the iPad than the lack of Flash is the lack of support for javascript layers. So thumbnail images on reduser or other forums don't pop up when clicked on, for example. I think this is more annoying than some annoying Flash banner that doesn't work. The only place I miss the Flash support is on some sites that have video content I might want to look at. However, most of those are adding HTML5 support if they have not already because they're not going to miss out on 90+million devices that could be viewing content and generating traffic...
Ditto.
My brother showed me his new Palm phone that does Flash and has an App store loaded with apps. If Palm can do it others will. And everyone else is looking for a way to sell against Apple. Flash is one OBVIOUS way. All else being equal you buy the device that supports Flash don't you? I guess we'll see.
I say Apple is vulnerable. All this hardware only lasts 2 years. The content of millions of Flash web pages is going to stay there for years and not be updated.
HTML5 will take YEARS and years to match the same amount of content Flash has.
If Dell or HP comes out with a Flash compatible competitor every reviewer and influential early adopter is going to recommend it over the iPad.
Apple doesn't own the world. Frankly, Adobe owns the world of content creation applications so they have the power here.
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Jeff Kilgroe
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If someone wants to make $1M overnight, they should create a server-side FLASH to HTML5 portal... Just sayin' Actually, I'm shocked such a thing isn't already out there, or maybe it is and I haven't looked. I keep thinking about doing it, but I know that as soon as I do and try to charge $5 per domain license for it, some prick will come along with a freebie open-source one.
Rick Burnett
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I'd say Apple is vulnerable yes, but not from Palm, but from Android. I was honestly hoping the Pre was a better implementation than it was, but after having used one, performance wise I was not impressed. If I were not to be a developer on the iPhone, I'd probably get the new 4G Android coming out shortly.
There might be millions of flash apps out there, and truth is, most of them are just crap. Don't get me wrong, I've seen good things too. But how many 'Arnold Quotes Generator' do we need? Most of the big game places like Pop Cap Games have already begun and released porting their games over to the iPhone (and probably Android) and even Xbox Arcade!
Maybe it's a good time for garbage collection on the web (programming joke!)
I agree HTML5 is going to take years to integrate to even a small extent to where Flash is embedded now. Just like how slowly CSS integration is moving into browsers. All the old code has been deprecated for awhile now, but it is still supported in the browsers.
Now, I will give you a PERFECT example of where I see a BIG hole. Think of all the people who play Flash games on FaceBook, things like Farmville or Treasure Madness. There is a HUGE amount of people that play those games and other applications. These people will be pissed off for sure if they don't know better and get an iPad and all of a sudden, no games!
If a competitor comes out with something that does support Flash then you are right, they could give them a run for their money.
But at the same time, one thing I have to educate many people on, is that the iPad is not trying to be a netbook. It's NOT intended to replace a laptop. It's NOT intended to run OSX. It's a device expanding on the iPhone/touch with one main driving point, touch screen interaction. That is why it doesn't run OSX software. Beyond processor limitations, it's about people writing applications that make sense for a phone that is SOLEY a touch system.
Even if flash was supported on the iPhone, there is no mechanism to support the mouse in, mouse out out of the box. Not like the Android with the roll ball. By not including other interface methods, they push developers to work within the confines of the interface. This makes TOTAL sense to me.
But to swing that back around, if HP or DELL make a Windows system on an iPad device, I wouldn't buy it. I don't want windows repackaged into a system it was never engineered ergonomically to work for. I've owned a tablet PC before, it was a horrible experience.
I want a system that forces the developer (like me) to write an application that works WITH the hardware UI design to some extent.
Rick Burnett
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Jeff Kilgroe
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Adobe should be doing this!
Yep. Actually, it would be a complex piece of software. And hugely resource-intensive on the server side of things, perhaps not even practical or even possible for sites with heavy traffic where the servers are already under load. Would be cheaper to support both Flash and HTML5 than to do massive server upgrades in order to support a band-aid solution to running what will soon be legacy software.
I think at this point, Adobe's best course of action would be a strong development / creation environment just like what Flash has, but built for HTML5. Perhaps allow developers to load Flash projects and export to HTML5 compliant modules. I do think Adobe will be moving in this direction. After all, Dreamweaver is already getting HTML5 support, it only makes sense...