STAGE 2: KEEP your RED ONE and get EPIC-X Stage 2 package

[Tim Whitcomb]

This is really simple guys.

The Stage program was a program created to take care of our family... you guys are not just customers to us.. we really look at you as our brothers and sisters.

It was ( at least we think ) an incredible gesture to show how much we value that relationship.

To find people trying to go around the system by doing sketchy lease to own and $1 sales to get around the rather simple terms is just plain wrong. It not only breaks our obligation to provide whatever stage you signed up for.. but it also breaks our hearts. It's really that personal.

We have watched this go on for awhile.. Jim has posted that it upset him.. but people continue to do it.

For all of you guys here that have posted that you have kept your camera and have stated various states of affection for your R1... We will never forget. We love you guys. For those of you like Andrew that have kept your camera and plan to sell it afterwards for various reasons... you are good in our books. But those of you that have sold off your camera and somehow think that a loophole makes everything o.k... Re-read Jim's signature.

jarred- I love you man but this is NOT simple.

1 NOBODY, neither buyers or sellers are questioning the GENEROSITY of RED... only your sanity

2. BUT what is NOT simple is that someone at RED... AUTHORIZED AND APPROVED THESE SALES. I am not going to name names here... but the lease options were pre-approved by RED. That is what Stephen and others are missing

2. This is COMPLICATED by the TIMING of this thread. If Jim was really bothered, then something should have been said a while ago.. but right BEFORE shipping... just seems mean spirited and spiteful.

3. Stage 2 was a cost savings logistically to RED versus the original trade - in plan.

4. If RED is taking a hit... then just RAISE THE X PRICE. With the Tsunami - it was pretty much expected.

5. I did not sell my RED ONE... Im defending those who did with RED's permission. Whether Jim was aware of it or not... RED was authorizing these lease option agreements.

I think demonizing people who made a little money brokering used R1 sales (without bogging RED down with owner transfer hassles) is just plain wrong. Especially in THIS ECONOMY.

Some people had to do this to SURVIVE after the delays. So for all you self rigtheous defenders of RED's generosity... please keep the CONTEXT.

Nobody who sold their executed Stage 2, did it to fuck RED... puh-lease.


DELETE THIS THREAD PLEASE...

 

[Adam Clark]

in the spirit of cooling things down and perhaps letting Bad Attitude (Baracus that is...) speak for himself...

please all, forgive me. i'm having an afternoon beer and couldn't resist.

 

[George Butterfield]

I have always enjoyed reading and participating on these forums. This is one of the most unfortunate threads I have ever read here.

I think this is an excellent thread. It holds a mirror up to who we are. The whole "RED" experience is a fantastic journey, on many levels.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Tim,
With all due respect, please change your suggestion to raise YOUR price on the X... I'd like to keep my price right where it is thank you.



Jay

 

[Danny Robashkin]

Let me throw another angle on this thing. Stage 2 "purists" should also be upset at this. Again, the whole difference was that Stage 2 participants were going to get a premium over those who return their camera. Kind of a bonus of sorts. Well, if a bunch of people of stage 3 people jumped the line by executing their camera and then selling it, well that's not fair for stage 2 guys.

I think you guys are blowing this all out of proportion though. It's not like RED has banned those members, or is not going to deliver them Epic-Xs.

Jim has stated it isn't right multiple times. And it isn't. It's taking advantage of a generous offer, screwing RED and other Stage 2 participants. I think it's fair for RED and Stage 2 guys to be unhappy (which is all that is being said).

 

[Stephen Williams]

Long-term rentals happen all the time.
.

I have never heard of a rental, where you pay almost the full price up front & then you have to pay repair costs on the rented camera. The responsibility to maintain the camera is with the 'buyer'.
Now all those 'renters' will have had a huge expense cost , not an asset purchase so will make much less profit than than if they bought a camera. I wonder if they all paid cash or did they tell their Bank it was only a rental?
The 'seller' will have a huge rental income to pay tax on & a camera to depreciate. It will still show as an asset being depreciated.

 

[Mike Smith]

...2. BUT what is NOT simple is that someone at RED... AUTHORIZED AND APPROVED THESE SALES. I am not going to name names here... but the lease options were pre-approved by RED. That is what Stephen and others are missing...

Tim,

I think you are confusing transfer of ownership with the Stage 2 deal. They are two completely different things. You are quite entitled to sell and transfer your camera to another person at any time as your circumstances dictate. Not so with the Stage 2 deal.

 

[Ash Worth]

Seems like a real mixed message RED is sending. You have Ketch, who to an outsider seems to be part of the RED team, he publicly receives the first EPIC M, publicly tests the Scarlet, publicly receives the first Canon mount but also brokers all these deals that are now deemed shady? It's not a huge leap to assume that these deals were sanctioned by RED. Very confusing.

 

[HD Hildebrand]

You're right...some of my posts are confrontational, but most, I'd say, are merely contrary. I make a distinction there where others may not. But if you notice, they're also almost always in DEFENSE of someone or something, as was the case with your post. I think it mischaracterized many potential future RED users, so I spoke up.

Bottom line - I don't see the problem with Stage 2 for the people who didn't create a problem for themselves by breaking the terms and conditions of Stage 2. Perhaps I just don't get the bigger picture. If that's the case, I'd love for you or someone else to explain it to me.

Brian, I don't disagree with you at all, it's just that this has nothing to do with my point. I was speaking in defense of Red as company and Red as a camera. Potential Red users were not even on the radar. No big deal.

 

[Joe Taylor]

Mine will work until she can't anymore, then join the rest of my collection of early important cinema cameras.

Greg, you need to get you Debrie out of the house! Mine still works fine!

 

[George Butterfield]

2. BUT what is NOT simple is that someone at RED... AUTHORIZED AND APPROVED THESE SALES. I am not going to name names here... but the lease options were pre-approved by RED. That is what Stephen and others are missing

Of course RED might have approved the sale, there's nothing wrong with selling your camera. What is against the spirit of the offer is selling your camera and still expecting all the benefits of Stage 2.

5. I did not sell my RED ONE... Im defending those who did with RED's permission. Whether Jim was aware of it or not... RED was authorizing these lease option agreements.

But he was not authorizing going against the Stage 2 agreement. Did they ask if they could lease option and still stay a Stage 2 participant?

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

The KEEP part of the #1 rule for Stage 2 is very important. You will find out soon why.

We have heard there are some people that are taking advantage of a great deal offered in good faith... that falls under " bad attitude ".

Hopefully this message will turn out to be good news for most people and bad news for only a few.

Very understandable. I too had become dismayed at the recent feeding frenzy of used RED Ones appearing here and other outlets. It began to feel like the psychology of ticket scalpers or Wall Street rats had taken over the community.

From my perspective, RED was not building their product for speculators, but for image makers.
That cemented my decision to become an owner.

Part of what kept me patient and sedated during the delays was noting that RED took advantage of that time not to figure out how to maximize their profits, but how to build in more capability. Remember, when we signed up for Stage 2, who ever thought that HDRX would be an included feature? Continual improvement of the product they are now delivering has been inherent in every move they have made. IMHO, well worth the wait - and, WTF, all of this with no increase in price - outstanding!

Some people simply got carried away with dollar bills on their minds - in other words, how could they best take advantage of RED's generosity. In doing so, they took a risk. That is business.
As with anything, when people abuse the process, it costs the rest of us. If you violated the agreement, your profit came at an unfair advantage over someone that played by the rules.
Unfortunately, there are some others in our community who never had greed on their minds - unwitting victims - and while I sympathize with their plight, they too benefitted by an early sale of their executed Stage 2 RED.
I suspect that had there been only a couple of "mistakes" before Jim expressed his displeasure, forgiveness to staunch RED supporters would have been in play. It is too bad that the reverse happened - the sales have escalated as the promised shipping dates for Stage 2 EPICs have become reality.
Brokering stages has even become a thread of its own. Are we not filmmakers first?

For everyone reading this thread - try to keep it in perspective. RED has been unlike any other business model. The product they are delivering is phenomenal. They have communicated with their customer at a level never before seen in our industry.

When they do post that something is not right - we owe them the courtesy of sitting back for a moment to understand their position.

That's the right attitude.

 

[Steve Marshall]

I don't have a horse in this race but I just want to say my thoughts.

As a relative new comer to the boards, I saw R1's being leased left right and centre, all over the For Sale forum - never did I see one closed/deleted. Never did a RED staff member comment (except for Jim's one comment, in one thread which is easily missed)

RED control these forums. If they had a problem with this is should of been clamped down on straight away. Ketch's thread has been going for over a year now!

That said I do think that it's taking advantage of the deal RED offered everyone.

 

[Vince Doran]

When they do post that something is not right - we owe them the courtesy of sitting back for a moment to understand their position.

I agree

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

Very understandable. I too had become dismayed at the recent feeding frenzy of used RED Ones appearing here and other outlets. It began to feel like the psychology of ticket scalpers or Wall Street rats had taken over the community.

From my perspective, RED was not building their product for speculators, but for image makers.
That cemented my decision to become an owner.

Part of what kept me patient and sedated during the delays was noting that RED took advantage of that time not to figure out how to maximize their profits, but how to build in more capability. Remember, when we signed up for Stage 2, who ever thought that HDRX would be an included feature? Continual improvement of the product they are now delivering has been inherent in every move they have made. IMHO, well worth the wait - and, WTF, all of this with no increase in price - outstanding!

Some people simply got carried away with dollar bills on their minds - in other words, how could they best take advantage of RED's generosity. In doing so, they took a risk. That is business.
As with anything, when people abuse the process, it costs the rest of us. If you violated the agreement, your profit came at an unfair advantage over someone that played by the rules.
Unfortunately, there are some others in our community who never had greed on their minds - unwitting victims - and while I sympathize with their plight, they too benefitted by an early sale of their executed Stage 2 RED.
I suspect that had there been only a couple of "mistakes" before Jim expressed his displeasure, forgiveness to staunch RED supporters would have been in play. It is too bad that the reverse happened - the sales have escalated as the promised shipping dates for Stage 2 EPICs have become reality.
Brokering stages has even become a thread of its own. Are we not filmmakers first?

For everyone reading this thread - try to keep it in perspective. RED has been unlike any other business model. The product they are delivering is phenomenal. They have communicated with their customer at a level never before seen in our industry.

When they do post that something is not right - we owe them the courtesy of sitting back for a moment to understand their position.

That's the right attitude.

This is a very good post, well put, very well put...Brian

 

[Brian Shephard]

For everyone reading this thread - try to keep it in perspective. RED has been unlike any other business model. The product they are delivering is phenomenal. They have communicated with their customer at a level never before seen in our industry.

When they do post that something is not right - we owe them the courtesy of sitting back for a moment to understand their position.

That's the right attitude.

No matter what position you are in - buyer/seller/neither - the above statement is very true. Well said.

 

[Bob Torrance]

Hmmmm... (scratching my head). I guess most users that post on this site are private owners that use their cameras themselves unlike myself that use them to run a business. I purchased 3 RED Ones (before MX chip) to start a rental business. I have just purchased an Epic M. Like a couple of others on this tread I think RED is wrong. I needed to purchase lenses (that is how you make money in the rental business, it seems) and got tired of waiting for Epic X to show up. So I sold my early camera and told the guy I can't transfer ownership until I receive my Epic X which would be soon (not). Was I trying to sneak around something? No I needed money to buy shit to run my business. How many have tried to borrow from a bank to buy lenses lately. Income from my business led to buying an Epic M and that income came from having complete kits, not just cameras. That sounds very much like supporting red to me.

If I loose my right to stage 2 so be it (I would like interest on the $5000 deposit RED has held for more than a year). I have two other RED MX packages that work all the time (stage 3 was planned). I owned the camera, the agreement said you can keep your red one and do with it what you want. But I didn't see "when we tell you you can" in there. The transfer of ownership seemed to have to do with book keeping to me. But I expected my first Epic to be weeks, not months away. Now that X cameras are shipping, I'm checking the store for the modules that were said to ship with the camera when it shipped. Hope they show up soon so I can get on with my business.

BTW, my plan was to start my business slowly and it has worked well but this worries me.

My 2 cents


Bob

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Did they ask if they could lease option and still stay a Stage 2 participant?

No, I bought mine before the Oct 31 Deadline and before STAGE 2 even existed.

I will say this one last time... someone at RED knew full well Stage 2 people were selling there executed R1's on lease to purchase agreements AND were even included in making sure the drafting of the rental agreements were IN COMPLIANCE with STAGE 2 RULES.

Now it appears Jim and Jarred were NOT made aware of this.

See the issue here now?

 

[Ryan Lalonde]

The real question is...

How many bomb squad reps are going to come into work on tuesday with 1000's of voicemails?

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I LOVE RED! I will NEVER sell my RED ONE MX (I NEVER sold my Arri 16BL either, nor a lot of other cams that I will not start naming), I promote RED at every occation I can find, I eat/sleep and drink RED.
I was LUCKY to be able to afford my R1 MX #476 to begin with (I was ready to put down the deposit at NAB was it April 2006? - but I just couldn´t, cause I had had a very hard time and I needed the 1000$ for food and rent...)

My RED ONE 476MX (and now SSD´s) came at a Perfect time in my life, on February 1st 2008 - I will never forget that day, we had a blizzard here in Oslo and I had to pay the duty/taxes thorugh my bank connection (huge stress) and then travel in very rough snowy conditions to the airport and pick it up. But what an AMAZING time it has been, what a PLEASURE it has been, what AMAZING LOVE I feel from and to RED and all the good rock star heroes at RED that I deal with.

And what an amazing journey it has been for me as a self emplyed; Dop/director/producer/editor and now one.man camera rental company.

I got my Epic-M, will NOt sell my R1 #476, I will get my Epic-X and still not sell any of the other cameras, I just LOVE all that RED has done.

And every day when I go to work, I am an ambassador for RED and do my upmost to make their products look the best. I am overfilled with joy of being in the position that I am with regards to RED; I recently had to get a new sensor for my Epic-M -8500$ dollars, not covered by the warranty - reason: apparently damage by laser. What do I do, do I cry, no I pay up, because I know in the long run I will make it back.
THE SMARTEST THING I EVER DID IN MY WORK WAS BUYING RED, AND CONTINUE BUYING RED!


And the funny thing is, I know personally at least one person caught in the stage 2 trap... and I know for a fact that this person is just as dedicated and loving towards REDs line of products / it´s services and it´s people, praises thes products to everyone he/she knows and serves RED well. And I also know for a fact that today this person had his/hers worst nightmare realised through this thread. This has been going on for two years, without any clear warnings, it looks like (if you follow the logic here) that both Steve Gibby and Ketch Rossi are involved/hurt!, I think the whole thing is just very very sad, I feel for those who thought they were on the right side of the line.

RED
I love what you have made, and I stand by you in sunshine and in hard storms! I just humbly ask that you reconcider this.

Best regards
Eirik Tyrihjel
owner/operator RED ONE MX#476 (SSD), RED EPIC-M 646, RED ONE #6386, and soon (hopefully) stage 2 Epic-X