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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

STAGE 2: KEEP your RED ONE and get EPIC-X Stage 2 package

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HD Hildebrand said:
I think you miss my point, but I see most of your posts are very confrontational, so we'll just leave it at that. Yours truly, the Elitist.
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You're right...some of my posts are confrontational, but most, I'd say, are merely contrary. I make a distinction there where others may not. But if you notice, they're also almost always in DEFENSE of someone or something, as was the case with your post. I think it mischaracterized many potential future RED users, so I spoke up.

The majority of my confrontational posts were FCP X related and came about when I thought people were going beyond reasonable displeasure and anger and crossing the line with hateful posts. To paraphrase a '70s love song, if trying to get people to be civilized towards one another is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Bottom line - I don't see the problem with Stage 2 for the people who didn't create a problem for themselves by breaking the terms and conditions of Stage 2. Perhaps I just don't get the bigger picture. If that's the case, I'd love for you or someone else to explain it to me.
 
Haha, how would anyone not understand that MASSIVE text? I hope the people who did sell the R1's on stage 2, spend more time on the details in their production than they do on reading their paperwork.
 
I was looking at selling RED #351 last year, I am not a shooter and bought the RED as a way to get into the film/tv business so I could make contacts and then shift to the writing side of things. As crazy as it sounds, this actually worked and while I'm not making a full living off of it yet I am a working writer who needed to spend more time on the keyboard and less time hunting up work for a camera if he wanted to move to the next level.

But I just couldn't make myself sell RED #351.

I know it is silly to get so attached to a piece of machinery but I did. Instead, I partnered up with a DP and he's been using it with me as the designated DIT (like most writers, I still need something to supplement my writing income). Even when the Epic X comes in, we won't sell #351 since we've built up a 3D rig for it and plan to do the same for Epics when we get our hands on those and us the RED1 MXs as the B camera to the Epic's A.

When RED brings out a camera that so far exceeds #351 that it is no longer reasonable to expect it to match up easily... I will want to have the old #351 sitting on the desk next to my Epic 645 Monstro... take it out now and again for a bit of nostalgia shooting.

Does that make me weird? Is there a Red Anonymous meeting I should be going to... or avoiding at all costs... I can't make up my mind.
 
I STILL rent my RED ONE's to this day... and will CONTINUE to rent my R1's AFTER my EPIC-X arrive.

I too am one who bought a R1 so I could jump the line... and get an earlier EPIC-X. I also PAID A HUGE PREMIUM

I ALSO PAID RED TO TRANSFER THE WARRANTY/OWNERSHIP BEFORE THE DEADLINE - I PAID MY DEPOSIT and have experienced DELAY after DELAY.

Then RED announced the EPIC M and 1000 people got ahead of me. That is the RISK I TOOK.

That said, I am really struggling to see the issue here Jarred/Jim... so its cool for me to have bought a camera BEFORE THE OCT CUTOFF (and for Donatello to sell me his)
because I had it legally tranfferred with RED? but after the cut off its not cool? HUH????

I think you should be flattered that some people leased to own R1's so they could get sell their position in line... to allow people to get an earlier EPIC-X.

I am seriously struggling to understand how this would offend you... a person's place in line with RED... is THEIR PLACE IN LINE. NOT RED's PLACE IN LINE. They bought it from RED - earned it and
therefore it seems they should be entitled to do what they want with their place in line... why don't you agree with that? You SOLD them their place in line. Not granted it.

You are not selling anymore or less Stage 2's or Stage 3's. So what is the point of this being bad attitude?

A lease option was not to "Skirt around the rule #3" it was to RESPECT RULE #3. If RED really didn't want people selling their place in line then the language
should have been more specific, and punishing people for that oversight after the fact - seems more like a bad attitude then people brokering their "place in line"

(YES< I realize this may anger you and you can delay my EPIC- X - that's fine... because IMHO RED is DEAD WRONG on this one.

Especially this late in the game! and I'm calling this BAD ATTITUDE on RED. sorry.

I'm too am on the receiving end here... not the selling... (well actually I bought mine #103 BEFORE the deadline and its transferred legally in my name)

I am just saying what a TON OF PEOPLE are afraid to post.... I say this whole thread GIVES ME A BAD ATTITUDE. WHY YOU ASK?

I LOVE RED. and you guys are MOSTLY RIGHT.. but I will say again (at the risk of never getting my X camera) YOU ARE REALLY WRONG ON THIS ONE

REASON: the most respected Red user on here, Ketch Rossi, has had his ad on your website EVERY DAY for 18 months !
 and you create a thread about this now??? Really?

So ban me or whatever... because this thread just makes me scratch my head - People taking advantage of their place in line is GOOD BUSINESS... and has ZERO impact on EPIC-X deliveries...
so please explain how this offends you guys?
 
So, some of the heros of the early campaign are now "bad apples" or worse?

Mark Toia is RED through and through and has one of the best (and most valuable) attitudes round these parts. Not trying to excuse everyone, but if Mark can make an oversight, anyone can.

Let's move on, and not turn this into a witch hunt, or turn the "family" into a sect. RED surely knows who to reward, etc...
 
Bill Anderson said:
So, some of the heros of the early campaign are now "bad apples" or worse?

Mark Toia is RED through and through and has one of the best (and most valuable) attitudes round these parts. Not trying to excuse everyone, but if Mark can make an oversight, anyone can.

Let's move on, and not turn this into a witch hunt, or turn the "family" into a sect. RED surely knows who to reward, etc...
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Agreed.

The technical side of things is clear...

The implementation should hopefully be handled wisely... :)

Mark and I can think of others have in NO WAY hurt REDs business.
Everyone who had their xfer of ownership ok'd by RED before the cutoff should be good, too (the buyers)
And then Jim doesn't want to be taken advantage of, which is understandable

This is an equation that should be solveable without legalize...

I am off this thread now.

It has outnumbered the 1st Epic-x delivery in views

Too bad...

Good luck to all!

G
 
People who sold their cameras, or no longer have any control of 'their' camera, having received 99.9% of the sale price knew full well they were taking the piss, but took the risk anyway. I have mentioned in severalf threads that it breached the spirit of the agreement, as usual I was laughed at by people who knew better. I really respect Jim for taking this line.
 
I am surprised that there is even a debate about this!

It doesn't matter if someone who sold their stage-2 REDONE is a strong supporter of RED or if they forgot that they clicked "I Accept" on the agreement with RED concerning Stage 2!

The program was clearly a 'Thank You" gesture for all of us who supported RED and a way to help us financially with the EPIC purchase. I am one of those who wouldn't be able to afford an EPIC if Jim wasn't so generous. To accept this generosity and instead try to make money out of it feels bad anyway you see it. I don't understand why people have problems in understanding it!

If I was in Jim's shoes I would definitely feel betrayed and I only hope that this situation will not affect his future decisions on the way he treats his customer base.
 
Tim Whitcomb = awesome. Just saying.




When this thread started, I thought maybe Red had some more plans for Red One in the future! Like upgrading / whatever to try to keep the Red One on par with Epic, but I don't now think that is what Jarred meant by "You will find out soon why.". I think it's a threat.

For once I am glad to not yet own a Red, though I hope to as soon as all this back and forth drama and stages works itself out.

Good luck to all.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
People taking advantage ...
so please explain how this offends you guys?
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I think this is it .... it was an extremely generous, unprecedented offer, and a lot of people made decisions based on the conditions as stated. Those making the offer assumed it would be accepted with the same integrity with which it was offered. It's not about sales, it's about integrity. The Stage 2 "guys" who pre sold ... are taking advantage of the other Stage 2 "guys" who are honouring the terms. And the Stage 3 "guys" who could not afford Stage 2.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
A lease option was not to "Skirt around the rule #3" it was to RESPECT RULE #3. If RED really didn't want people selling their place in line then the language
should have been more specific, and punishing people for that oversight after the fact - seems more like a bad attitude then people brokering their "place in line"
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Excuse me but a lease option was just to Skirt around the rule no 3, sorry we were not born yesterday. Ketch seems to be online, normally he chimes in very quickly.
 
Miltos Pilalitos said:
I am surprised that there is even a debate about this!

It doesn't matter if someone who sold their stage-2 REDONE is a strong supporter of RED or if they forgot that they clicked "I Accept" on the agreement with RED concerning Stage 2!

The program was clearly a 'Thank You" gesture for all of us who supported RED and a way to help us financially with the EPIC purchase. I am one of those who wouldn't be able to afford an EPIC if Jim wasn't so generous. To accept this generosity and instead try to make money out of it feels bad anyway you see it. I don't understand why people have problems in understanding it!

If I was in Jim's shoes I would definitely feel betrayed and I only hope that this situation will not affect his future decisions on the way he treats his customer base.
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Well again Im a guy who PAID THE PREMIUM with no problem. and LEGALLY TRANSFERRED MY R1 BEFORE THE DEADLINE... and all I can say is. Donatello was SMART.

I lost my ass on this deal and Im not bitching... so excuse me if I think Jim is taking this all wrong...imho, its a personal reaction, not a business reaction. People BOUGHT THEIR PLACE in line. Its not a birth right. its a camera reservation

Lets keep perspective here guys... Jim you made the best camera ever... but its still an inanimate object... please DELETE THIS THREAD before the haters have a field day with it.

THE PR hit is not worth it. I can understand what you are saying... but this threatening thread makes RED look like fascist dictators - and that is depressing.

What if the cameras has shipped last June? This would all be a non-issue and really Stephen give me a break, you are always the CONTRARIAN, and love stirring shit up... this SHOULD be a non-issue.

RED had plenty of time to address this and doing it on shipping with this veiled threat just feels MEAN SPIRITED. That is all I am saying.

Perhaps the RED TEAM should all go chill out on Jim's island in Fiji for a week and take a break... because right now its looking like sleep deprivation is clouding their usually sound judgment.

EDIT: Lets not forget that STAGE 2 was also strategic in reducing the LOGISTiCAL NIGHTMARE of 8000 Red One Trade ins and KETCH and many others got PRE APPROVAL FROM RED!!!
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Jack
You're obviously a lawyer

This is pretty easy, and it has been pretty obvious to understand REDs intended meaning of this contract all along

As to mutual respect and understanding, technical differenses between "leases" and "sales" are nought.
Might be an interesting courtcase, but does not re-establish trust

If you get my point...
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Glenn,

Definitely NOT a lawyer (thankfully). Our parent corp does expert witness work for cases involving economic damages, forensic accounting, etc for Fortune 500s around the world. The only "meaning" of the contract is the contract itself. To the contrary, companies, in most cases, ALWAYS spell out the "technical differences" of leases, sales, and warranties because this is what they will rely on should a case end up in court.

I'm not sure the implication of your "trust" comment. Everyone is running a business here -- Red, OffHollywood, independent owners, Steve, etc. ...If you get MY point...?

Like I stated before, it would be a shame for something silly to overshadow the exciting launch of X.

Clearly, it would help end the speculation if Jim communicated the meaning of the original post.

No doubt, all eyes are on reduser right now.
 
As with all things, we are all flying around, bouncing off walls, when we do not even know what the big "thing" is going to be. It could be something very small, or a discount. I seriously doubt people will lose the ability to purchase an Epic X.

My mama always says : "Anticipation is the art of suffering twice"

Why not wait and see how this really develops before we all develop a complex over it?

Jay
 
Miltos Pilalitos said:
I am surprised that there is even a debate about this!

It doesn't matter if someone who sold their stage-2 REDONE is a strong supporter of RED or if they forgot that they clicked "I Accept" on the agreement with RED concerning Stage 2!

The program was clearly a 'Thank You" gesture for all of us who supported RED and a way to help us financially with the EPIC purchase. I am one of those who wouldn't be able to afford an EPIC if Jim wasn't so generous. To accept this generosity and instead try to make money out of it feels bad anyway you see it. I don't understand why people have problems in understanding it!

If I was in Jim's shoes I would definitely feel betrayed and I only hope that this situation will not affect his future decisions on the way he treats his customer base.
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Agree 100%. the contract/agreement was made of 3 simple and clear rules that everybody can understand.
RED is so generous with us, that trying to make money of this deal is not cool. Finally there is a company that make us feel like a family, giving us good products, free softwares, free updates and a big (HUGE) discount to get to the next level (because I am in the same situation of Militos... I can't buy an EPIC without RED's generosity) and some people think about to take advantage of this deal.

From my point of view, a good business relationship is about honesty, respect and trust. Then, everybody have its own thinking and everybody behave as they feel.
 
I'm failing to see how anything positive can come from this thread... for Red or it's customers.

I'd much rather be excited that X is shipping, rather than feel confused by this needless drama.
 
Hopefully this message will turn out to be good news for most people and bad news for only a few.
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Maybe RED will comeup with some surprise offer for people who have their executed RED ONES with them ...

.......
 
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