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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

STAGE 2: KEEP your RED ONE and get EPIC-X Stage 2 package

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Well although I realize that it was an EPIC-X, Mark does have an EPIC-M so could that not save him? He received delivery of an EPIC...

Given I guess it says clearly that it is EPIC-X...

So really #3 was more of a 'be patient' which I suppose some jumped? Don't think RED has an issue with you selling the camera AFTER you get your X is that right?
 
After the agreement is fullfilled, you can do whatever you wanna.
I would not be surprised if RED had some more incentives for keeping us from flooding the market with old R1's up their sleeves, though.
 
Just about a year ago I "purchased" an executed R1 that was brokered by a highly respected member of this community... someone close to Red, whom numerous individuals on this forum voiced their support for. This all appeared to be totally legit and I'm quite sure the broker believed that to be the case. Due to the volume of sales and visibility of this one person, it's pretty obvious that Red could have turned this all into a non-issue by having a heart-to-heart with him about the specifics, the loophole and their feelings about them.

Should Red even have to "Police" their generosity? Well, no they shouldn't have to. And, yeah, the Stage deals are VERY generous, but they are also confusing enough that I had absolutely no idea what was going on. I'm not surprised about the publication of this thread because the whole Red team has such passion about their vision and cameras, but passions tend to lead to heated moments. Sometimes, you just gotta shrug your shoulders.... and say, as my wife often says to my son, "ni modo."

So here I am a year later, planning to buy an Epic-M. I'm gonna pay, what, a 23 grand premium over Stage 2 owners and 15 grand premium over Stage 4 buyers...? So what. The camera is totally worth it. I have no problem paying what an item is actually worth. I paid 43k for my MF digital back. It was worth it and it paid for itself in a year. If others around me are getting better deals because they're Stage This or Stage That, so what? Good on them! Hell, I'll still make money. And after all, it's only money. All I really care about is making the best work I can and maybe enough cash to take the family somewhere nice once in a while.

Shit. What was my point? I don't know, it was a long shoot yesterday and I'm working on my first cup of coffee. I guess all I have to say is... I hope Red isn't too hard on people. I genuinely believe there was some innocent confusion in all of this and there is so much really awesome karma in this community that it breaks my heart to see that disturbed.

Party on, Garth.
 
I have my MX, I'm in for Stage 2 and have been planning to keep it as my "B" camera on shoots. But agree with Tim, this does feel like dangerous territory. Hate to see a backlash against Red.

Here is my main concern with the whole Stage 2 (as well as my wishful thinking):

Red started with the concept of "making Obsolescence Obsolete", but after Red One was released, it became apparent that was not possible. Things changed. In came Epic with the infinite possibilities of upgrades. Now, with Stage 2 about to hit us, there are a ton of people who will have 2 cameras, not enough cash, and full intention of offloading the Red One. This means people will start dumping them at stupid prices. In turn, this will not only devalue the Red One, but the Epic as well. My reasoning - Red One will be sold for lower and lower prices the deeper we get into this thing. As a result, the cameras will be sold to lesser experienced people who will not know how to work it, will create crappy images, will poo-poo anything Red, will need maintenance of equipment that will break more often and that will become obsolete (IE Red drives), won't have a clue or patience to work with the post flow, will make every effort to give Red a bad name. No one knows the full effect of this, but it's like the housing market - things get dumped, values go down.

Also, with the unfortunate Tsunami in Japan, everything was delayed and now it looks like stage 2, 3, 3.5, and 4 are all happening back to back, plus with all the "M's" already released, there's not much of a strategic advantage to stage 2 any more. Things have changed once again. No one could have foreseen this either.

My hope is that Jarred's hinting is more about a change to stage 2 - that it will become an option that could be more like stage 3. We committed earlier, but we could have the option of returning our Red One (if we haven't sold them off in some weird transaction), for some sort of deal similar to Stage 3. This obviously doesn't seem like a financially wise hit for Red in the short term, but in the long term, Red has a clean slate of cameras to move forward with, without having to babysit a ton of weird transactions and a shit-load of second-hand Red One owners who certainly will not have "team effort" in mind. However, if there are happy customers with Epics, they will keep upgrading into the future and the brand stays in a power position, which could be more more financially rewarding to Red in the long run.

Plain and simple - I sincerely appreciate Stage 2 but Stage 2 could be a real mess, for all of us. Red has been an amazing company to deal with, what they have done is unparalleled, the cameras are amazing, they have moved the industry, and Red is in a power position... but with the potential of a gluttony of Red One's dumped onto the market, my fear is exactly what we've heard all along - things change.
 
Brent@RED said:
If you did Stage 2, you either signed that form or agreed to those same exact terms on our Stage 2 reservation microsite. Either way, we have the record of it and you would not have been able to execute your Red One for Stage 2 without agreeing to those terms.

BC
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I don't have a horse in this race, our camera was never executed for Stage 2, so this doesn't affect me, this is just my thinking... and I think I've posted in these terms before.

People signed up to this, sure. But it's a fact, not a complaint, that they signed up a long time ago. It's a fact, not a complaint, that Stage 2 deliveries have been delayed way beyond what was expected when deposits were made. And it's sure as hell a fact that this country has been through some rough economic times in the last couple of years.

I think some flexibility is called for here. Do you really mean to penalize someone who is struggling to hold a business together and has ended up having to sell their R1 to scape together the funds to finish paying for Stage 2? Or pay their mortgage?

I also think that the Stage 2 offer has to be read next to the Stage 3 offer. When I first saw the stages outlined, my take was 'Stage 3 is for people who want to trade their camera in to RED, Stage 2 is for people who don't'. It wasn't immediately apparent to me that there was anything critical about 'keep', to my eyes 'keep' was, in a sense, the opposite of 'trade in'.

I would hope you would be sympathetic to circumstances, and wouldn't be too hard on people who don't display an egregiously bad attitude. But yes, if they've legally transferred ownership, they certainly have an issue by the letter of the agreement.

Mike
 
Wait just a second, I think I may have figured it out. RED has something else up their sleeves for Stage Two folks. And we'll definitely want to have both cameras available for it. Is that it? For the record, I still have my camera #2658, still an M flavor, awaiting the X factor email.
 
The way I see it, it is not so much about Jim having clarified his point of view, we all signed the ageement, and as Jarred stated, it is the particularity of Red, it is about "family". Some people don't like the way Red does business, that's because they're not part of the family and they don't get it. Some people are part of the family, those are the ones Red has offered this amazing deal to, because Red felt they stood by them in the begining, against all the nay sayers. They made proof of patience and leniency as Red grew, learned and delivered. When Red announced, a new camera, I was sad for my R1. When Red announced the deals, I was grateful but torn as to which one take, then stage 2 became an evidence because I didn't want to part with my R1. My R1 is what I used to invest in my company, I made a contract with my company, that if we were ever to part, the R1 comes back to me and I can leave with it. Red offered us a deal because they new some people were attached, like they were, to their R1. People deciding to take advantage of Red's offer, being able to KEEP their R1, yet get an incredible deal on an Epic, and deciding to sell their R1, to make money, are breaking the deal, and most importantly, and quite understandably in my opinion, breaking the heart of people at Red. That is the particulalrity of Red, it goes beyond just business, that's what irritates some, and I understand that also, because that's not how they're used to doing business, but it's like their cameras (and raw), it's new and different, difficult to get your head arround it in the begining, but once you do, it makes sense. I love being part of the family. Thank you Red.

Damien
 
Tim Morten said:
Seems like there's two ways for Red to play this: either it's actually about attitude, in which case Red has complete discretion in who does/does not fall in the "bad" category, or it's about the following the exact language or term number three, in which case anyone who has actually transferred ownership has to wait for a full-price Epic-X.

Personally, I think it would be unfortunate for folks like Mark, who are unquestionably genuine Red supporters, to get penalized. I can understand wanting to punish someone who actually lied about transfer, and yes Mark made a mistake, but there's a meaningful difference between the two.

Is this about the letter of the law or the spirit of the law? The former runs the risk of penalizing good people, the latter runs the risk of feeling arbitrary. This whole thing feels like dangerous territory...

- Tim
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I read the original offers and made my decision based on what the offers were. Because of my financial situation, and the fact that you must keep your RED ONE until after receiving your Epic-X, I chose stage III. If you could sell your RED ONE in advance, I would have chosen stage 2. There are many people who fall in this boat, I presume.
 
Market is market. It stands to reason that when a new model comes out the previous one is worth less. But if the old model does 90% of what the new one does, it won't be worth that much less. The Epic is a $30k camera - more with all the necessary kit. If you can buy a Red One for half that and do 90% of what the Epic can do, it is a great deal for some. Someone said there are nearly 10,000 R1 around. They aren't going to get dumped overnight.

Anyway, it's surely in the company's interests to expand the market, not replace it. All those R1s will gradually be upgraded or replaced, but not all at once; and even when they can only do 50% of what the latest ones can do they will still have a role in schools and training.

John
 
Even I retired from the motion picture industry, my 1740 MX is sitting on my shelves along with arii 16sr, cinema products 16. I'll never sell those. I'll take to my grave yard with me :) The epic will be traveling with me all over the world my retirement year.
 
Jarred Land said:
The KEEP part of the #1 rule for Stage 2 is very important. You will find out soon why.

We have heard there are some people that are taking advantage of a great deal offered in good faith... that falls under " bad attitude ".

Hopefully this message will turn out to be good news for most people and bad news for only a few.
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Red One 1265, we are still together and having fun and making beautiful shots every day! Epic-X Stage 2 package was the best deal there is! Can't wait to get this camera in my hands and shoot side by side with my MX.

best regards
Robert
Red One 1265 and Epic-X coming soon
 
I'm on the opposite side of the fence, wanted to buy a Red One but didn't have the money (just got out of school yo). And yet I was kicking myself when the stages came out because in reality you could of gotten 2 amazing cameras (Red One & Epic-X) so that would fit easily into the A & B Camera set-up. Then I started to see all these "Red One" offers where people were trying to offload their Stage-2 Red Ones. When I saw that I though "that would be a nice way to afford a Red" but at the same time I was thinking "but wait, thats not right, you have to keep the camera."

I totally agree with Red on this one, they made the rules for the incredible offers. You picked your stage and should live with the decision you made.

At this point now that people getting the Epic-X can legitimately sell there Red Ones, if I see a price I like I'll jump for it, otherwise I'll wait for the Scarlet which I'm hoping is only around the corner.
 
I really feel like many people need to re-read this post from Jarred. If you still have your R1 and haven't partaken in any loophole shenanigans or broken condition #3, you're free to sell your R1 once you take delivery of the Stage 2 Epic-X. The folks at RED will decide how to deal with the others however they see fit.

Jarred Land said:
This is really simple guys.

The Stage program was a program created to take care of our family... you guys are not just customers to us.. we really look at you as our brothers and sisters.

It was ( at least we think ) an incredible gesture to show how much we value that relationship.

To find people trying to go around the system by doing sketchy lease to own and $1 sales to get around the rather simple terms is just plain wrong. It not only breaks our obligation to provide whatever stage you signed up for.. but it also breaks our hearts. It's really that personal.

We have watched this go on for awhile.. Jim has posted that it upset him.. but people continue to do it.

For all of you guys here that have posted that you have kept your camera and have stated various states of affection for your R1... We will never forget. We love you guys. For those of you like Andrew that have kept your camera and plan to sell it afterwards for various reasons... you are good in our books. But those of you that have sold off your camera and somehow think that a loophole makes everything o.k... Re-read Jim's signature.
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Mine will work until she can't anymore, then join the rest of my collection of early important cinema cameras.

Epic_Cameras.jpg
 
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