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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

STAGE 2: KEEP your RED ONE and get EPIC-X Stage 2 package

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The truth is that when RED announced the EPIC my first thought was: "It's a shame I can't afford it, but I'm really happy with my RED ONE."
Then RED made that incredible decision to do the STAGES program for us, and I almost cried. Not that I could afford an EPIC then, but the offers were so good I had to do it, I had to spend my next year gathering the money to get into STAGE 2. STAGE 2, of course, for me was the only way to go: how could I separate myself from the first camera in my life that made me feel no compromises in terms of image acquisition? I love my RED ONE (#4057) and the only thing that I regret about all this is that I hadn't had the money (I had to save for the EPIC-X) to do the Mysterium-X upgrade, yet. But I know it's next in my RED to-do list!
I know there are things that could be better with the RED ONE, but it's part of my life, all my friends know my "obsession" in taking care of it: it's the camera that has made my life the way it is now and I really appreciate that.
So this is why I decided to KEEP my RED ONE.
 
Guys, this may be obvious and already stated, but I think the hurt on Red's side comes from this:

- They make an outrageously customer-loyalty offer that's unprecedented in the industry (keep your Red One, get $8500 credit, pay just $19500 for Epic-X kit)

- They go through incredible pains to get the camera produced and production ready WITHOUT raising prices, despite needing to; they honor their word

- Some individuals then seemingly (I'm not indicting any one person) take advantage of this, because by selling an executed Red One body for $15,000 or so -- they are essentially getting a deluxe Epic package for around $5,000!!!

Red has already gone on record as saying that they are barely even profiting from Epic-Ms at this point, but they want to honor their word and get cameras into their customers hands. So it's understandable they'd be offended by those who use this gesture and their integrity to get an Epic kit for the price of Canon camera.
 
HD Hildebrand said:
I have my MX, I'm in for Stage 2 and have been planning to keep it as my "B" camera on shoots. But agree with Tim, this does feel like dangerous territory. Hate to see a backlash against Red.

Here is my main concern with the whole Stage 2 (as well as my wishful thinking):

Red started with the concept of "making Obsolescence Obsolete", but after Red One was released, it became apparent that was not possible. Things changed. In came Epic with the infinite possibilities of upgrades. Now, with Stage 2 about to hit us, there are a ton of people who will have 2 cameras, not enough cash, and full intention of offloading the Red One. This means people will start dumping them at stupid prices. In turn, this will not only devalue the Red One, but the Epic as well. My reasoning - Red One will be sold for lower and lower prices the deeper we get into this thing. As a result, the cameras will be sold to lesser experienced people who will not know how to work it, will create crappy images, will poo-poo anything Red, will need maintenance of equipment that will break more often and that will become obsolete (IE Red drives), won't have a clue or patience to work with the post flow, will make every effort to give Red a bad name. No one knows the full effect of this, but it's like the housing market - things get dumped, values go down.
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Jarred stated that people who sell their R1s AFTER they take delivery of their Stage 2 Epics are good in their books, meaning they're fine. Your point about having two cameras and not enough cash a) should've been planned for prior to signing up for Stage 2 and b) is not the dire strait you make it out to be because those people are free to sell their R1s once they get the Stage 2 Epic-X and, especially due to the long delay, should've had ample time to try to line up a buyer.

Of course R1s will sell for lower and lower prices. That's how it works with almost all used gear. Your theory that this will lead to subpar images in the hands of less experienced users is both elitist and questionable. Crap RED images have existed from day one. Not everyone who had the money to buy an R1 knew what to do with it. That goes for people who've been in the business for quite some time. I've seen a few images from the Epic-M that make me cringe and that's $58K. You can't equate bad looking images with a person's ability to afford the camera they shot them on.

Also, with the unfortunate Tsunami in Japan, everything was delayed and now it looks like stage 2, 3, 3.5, and 4 are all happening back to back, plus with all the "M's" already released, there's not much of a strategic advantage to stage 2 any more. Things have changed once again. No one could have foreseen this either.

My hope is that Jarred's hinting is more about a change to stage 2 - that it will become an option that could be more like stage 3. We committed earlier, but we could have the option of returning our Red One (if we haven't sold them off in some weird transaction), for some sort of deal similar to Stage 3. This obviously doesn't seem like a financially wise hit for Red in the short term, but in the long term, Red has a clean slate of cameras to move forward with, without having to babysit a ton of weird transactions and a shit-load of second-hand Red One owners who certainly will not have "team effort" in mind. However, if there are happy customers with Epics, they will keep upgrading into the future and the brand stays in a power position, which could be more more financially rewarding to Red in the long run.

Plain and simple - I sincerely appreciate Stage 2 but Stage 2 could be a real mess, for all of us. Red has been an amazing company to deal with, what they have done is unparalleled, the cameras are amazing, they have moved the industry, and Red is in a power position... but with the potential of a gluttony of Red One's dumped onto the market, my fear is exactly what we've heard all along - things change.
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Again, elitist. You think second-hand R1 owners "certainly won't have 'team effort' in mind'? On what do you base this assumption? Buying used is the only way some people can afford an R1, or a BMW, or a Cadillac, or a Les Paul. That doesn't mean they're not going to revere it for its capabilities. It will be "new" to them. Even though the R1 was originally relatively cheap at $17,500 that's still a lot of money. Maybe I''m mistaken but your "let's keep RED cameras in the hands of the privileged, experienced few who've earned it" attitude goes against what I understood to be the RED philosophy.
 
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AnthonyFlores said:
Guys, this may be obvious and already stated, but I think the hurt on Red's side comes from this:

- They make an outrageously customer-loyalty offer that's unprecedented in the industry (keep your Red One, get $8500 credit, pay just $19500 for Epic-X kit)

- They go through incredible pains to get the camera produced and production ready WITHOUT raising prices, despite needing to; they honor their word

- Some individuals then seemingly (I'm not indicting any one person) take advantage of this, because by selling an executed Red One body for $15,000 or so -- they are essentially getting a deluxe Epic package for around $5,000!!!

Red has already gone on record as saying that they are barely even profiting from Epic-Ms at this point, but they want to honor their word and get cameras into their customers hands. So it's understandable they'd be offended by those who use this gesture and their integrity to get an Epic kit for the price of Canon camera.
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Nailed it
+ the extra harmit does to REDs customerbase to have it filled up with old R1's

I bet they'd rather sell them Epics...

There re two sides to such a deal. REDs has rarely been plainly stupid. Probably wasn't this time either...
 
They brought stage 3 out for those who could not afford to keep their camera. Stage 2 if for those who can afford to keep it. Doesn't get more clear or simple than that.
 
George Butterfield said:
I read the original offers and made my decision based on what the offers were. Because of my financial situation, and the fact that you must keep your RED ONE until after receiving your Epic-X, I chose stage III. If you could sell your RED ONE in advance, I would have chosen stage 2. There are many people who fall in this boat, I presume.
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Me too.

However policing such a rule fully is near impossible. Lets say I sold my R1 locally to another and told them to keep it shush until Epic was delivered. If Red wanted proof, I can easily go to him and get my camera back and say 'look it's still mine'. Or pay for them to post it to me. I know thats devious, but I'm sure most have really covered their backs knowing they were taking advantage of the deal; they'll get away with it too, but people like Mark who sticks his hands up and says 'I made an honest mistake' don't get the deal.

Very tough call.
 
Brian Boyer said:
Jarred stated that people who sell their R1s AFTER they take delivery of their Stage 2 Epics are good in their books, meaning they're fine. Your point about having two cameras and not enough cash a) should've been planned for prior to signing up for Stage 2 and b) is not the dire strait you make it out to be because those people are free to sell their R1s once they get the Stage 2 Epic-X and, especially due to the long delay, should've had ample time to try to line up a buyer.

Of course R1s will sell for lower and lower prices. That's how it works with almost all used gear. Your theory that this will lead to subpar images in the hands of less experienced users is both elitist and questionable. Crap RED images have existed from day one. Not everyone who had the money to buy an R1 knew what to do with it. That goes for people who've been in the business for quite some time. I've seen a few images from the Epic that make me cringe.
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I think you miss my point, but I see most of your posts are very confrontational, so we'll just leave it at that. Yours truly, the Elitist.
 
My Red camera was stolen, I hope this doesn't unqualify me for stage 2. I didn't have insurance at the time and have been unable to replace my camera. I've been renting cameras for shoots and saving every penny waiting for my stage 2 epic. This would be very devastating if this affected my stage 2 order.
 
What about stolen cameras?

What about stolen cameras?

I, too, am curious about how they are going to do the verification on this. RED was very cool and agreed to let me execute my camera 714 that was stolen a couple of years ago in Seattle (and must still be floating out there as it never surfaced!) Allowing me to execute Stage 2 was cool (and logical - but the two don't always go together).

So there are a few of us that simply aren't going to be able to take a picture next to a newspaper - although I'm figuring that's not the verification process.

Thanks,
Max
 
Ben Graham said:
They brought stage 3 out for those who could not afford to keep their camera. Stage 2 if for those who can afford to keep it. Doesn't get more clear or simple than that.
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Not entirely, most camera owners simply don't need two camera setups.
For those that did, Stage 2 was a clear winner.
 
Jarred Land said:
Pawel... with all due respect.... That is complete bullshit.

Everyone signed this..... read #3.

1315074296.jpg
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Jarred, with all due respect, most of the programs that had been contracted between the various owners Pawel generally references in his post due NOT violate item No. 3 in the Red agreement you post in the message.

Interestingly enough, I had posted several comments in months past about the LEGAL differences between asset ownership, leases, and warranties using our experience and case law in the automotive space. The nuances are quiet easy to overlook since the general public brings many preconceived notions to the table.

What is strange is that I just tried to paste the link in this post, but I am only finding about 35 or so in the search history, none of which pertain to any of those lease discussions.

I know Ketch brokered many of those deals...? Pawel is correct in his observation, was Ketch running around the country with a "bad attitude" with the M and Scarlet...? Those comments are very confusing...

Hopefully, something silly doesn't overshadow the great progress and work you guys have been doing.

Congrats on the X Launch...!!!
 
Brian, excelent post, you said it all. From the beginning, Red fought the established elitist industry with their unique approach to costumers and the way they presented themselves, in trade shows, for example, by being all about communication, of breaking boundaries, of talking with the anonymous filmmaker, over here, or all over the world. Red, I still believe, is everything but elitist. Looking at a place like cinema 5D, or at short film festivals everywhere, there are short films that look absolutely stunning shot with DSLRs by people that would've loved to shoot on a Red but just couldn't pay for it. These people if given the opportunity will even push Red's reputation further. These people can make miracles of crappy H264 cameras, imagine what they can make with a Red.

Brian Boyer said:
Jarred stated that people who sell their R1s AFTER they take delivery of their Stage 2 Epics are good in their books, meaning they're fine. Your point about having two cameras and not enough cash a) should've been planned for prior to signing up for Stage 2 and b) is not the dire strait you make it out to be because those people are free to sell their R1s once they get the Stage 2 Epic-X and, especially due to the long delay, should've had ample time to try to line up a buyer.

Of course R1s will sell for lower and lower prices. That's how it works with almost all used gear. Your theory that this will lead to subpar images in the hands of less experienced users is both elitist and questionable. Crap RED images have existed from day one. Not everyone who had the money to buy an R1 knew what to do with it. That goes for people who've been in the business for quite some time. I've seen a few images from the Epic-M that make me cringe and that's $58K. You can't equate bad looking images with a person's ability to afford the camera they shot them on.



Again, elitist. You think second-hand R1 owners "certainly won't have 'team effort' in mind'? On what do you base this assumption? Buying used is the only way some people can afford an R1, or a BMW, or a Cadillac, or a Les Paul. That doesn't mean they're not going to revere it for its capabilities. It will be "new" to them. Even though the R1 was originally relatively cheap at $17,500 that's still a lot of money. Maybe I''m mistaken but your "let's keep RED cameras in the hands of the privileged, experienced few who've earned it" attitude goes against what I understood to be the RED philosophy.
Click to expand...
 
Guys, It's pretty simple, there are three terms of sale....count 'em...three.

Its not like this stuff was buried in masses of small print, as Brent said, if you signed up for stage 2 you signed this doc, either physically or electronically.

The whole 'Stage' concept was an incredibly generous one to begin with ( just do the rough numbers in your head..its frightening what Jim's prepared to give up to do this) anyone who offloaded their bodies beforehand was BREAKING THE TERMS OF SALE.

As far as stolen camera bodies go...i'm sure if anyone doesnt have insurance paperwork (!), they should be able to obtain copies of the police report from the time of the original theft/break-in.

Three rules....that's all Jim asked you to follow
 
John Allardice said:
Guys, It's pretty simple, there are three terms of sale....count 'em...three.

Its not like this stuff was buried in masses of small print, as Brent said, if you signed up for stage 2 you signed this doc, either physically or electronically.

The whole 'Stage' concept was an incredibly generous one to begin with ( just do the rough numbers in your head..its frightening what Jim's prepared to give up to do this) anyone who offloaded their bodies beforehand was BREAKING THE TERMS OF SALE.

As far as stolen camera bodies go...i'm sure if anyone doesnt have insurance paperwork (!), they should be able to obtain copies of the police report from the time of the original theft/break-in.

Three rules....that's all Jim asked you to follow
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John,

The terms of Stage "sales" is not the focal point of the conversation...Your comment above is true, but not relevant to the other posters in terms of compliance with Item 3 Jarred is referencing...
 
Jack
You're obviously a lawyer

This is pretty easy, and it has been pretty obvious to understand REDs intended meaning of this contract all along

As to mutual respect and understanding, technical differenses between "leases" and "sales" are nought.
Might be an interesting courtcase, but does not re-establish trust

If you get my point...
 
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