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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

SONY F65 - ALEXA - EPIC - just tick the boxes

Uli Plank said:
DR (without HDRx) and low-light? Yes, Alexa. But skin tones? Not any more with RC3/RG3 !
Click to expand...

Under what conditions have you found this?
- in sunlit exterior, Red does pretty well
- tungsten interior, not so much
- night in not-fully-controllable environments (low-CRI lights etc) is more of a problem for Red than other cameras often too...

Of course even Alexa gets slaughtered by film, in my opinion.

Even for daylight exteriors... the thing RED is best at... let's pick any movie with vaguely-natural skin tones shot on film - let's say the first 3 shots of the first Hunger Games trailer just for random example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfmrPu43DF8&feature=player_embedded

Let's try to recreate it on RED. I bet you can't get the combination of subtle skin color detail and also rich rich tones without SERIOUS grading work. It shouldn't be this hard, people!

I hope someone proves me wrong. You'd think that Epic folks would want to... since a lot of them would get a lot more business if we got awesome skin tones easily.

Anyway, I think that RC3 is getting better but not there yet.

Encouraging though - because it means RED is aware of the issue. So, hopefully they are taking this into account in sensor development too.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
We just finished shooting a network pilot on the Epic with RC3/RG3 and pretty much everyone agreed the image coming off the camera had better skintones and a more natural "cinematic" pallete than the Alexa that was used for the previous pilot the producers worked on.
Also the lip color was far more real than the off purple Of the Alexa. You are right though, every digital camera gives up some color accuracy in tungsten.
 
Oh how i wish RED had stuck with a LEMO port facing that way instead of out the front like now :)

Great list Mark. I've had this list in my head for over a year now and i just keep swapping different cams against the Epic.

Epic wins every time.

Not perfect but just where it counts :)

See you in Vegas.
 
Sorry, I do not follow how anyone can claim that shooting ProRes HD is a 'best point' for any camera, when you do not even mention Red Epic's ability to shoot RAW as its best point.

This is similar to how amateur -and ignorant- photographers often brag that their cheapo plastic toy camera shoots 'straight to jpeg' and does not "burden" them with RAW. I am sure Mr. Toia knows better, and this is only an oversight.

In my mind, the ability to get RAW footage is the single biggest quality differentiator between Red Epic and rival products.
 
Evin Grant said:
We just finished shooting a network pilot on the Epic with RC3/RG3 and pretty much everyone agreed the image coming off the camera had better skintones and a more natural "cinematic" pallete than the Alexa that was used for the previous pilot the producers worked on.
Also the lip color was far more real than the off purple Of the Alexa. You are right though, every digital camera gives up some color accuracy in tungsten.
Click to expand...

This matches my experiences with RC3/RG3.
Skin tones are nuanced and lifelike. As are Red clothing. Angels baseball uniforms looked great.
 
My tick boxes are slightly different, but the result is similar and boils down to a couple "must have" features:
[x] removable lens mount
[x] size

There are still some boxes I have high on my list and I'm hoping they can be checked soon:
[-] cache recording
[-] remote power on/off

I think, when making a decision, it is important to put a price that you are prepared to pay for certain feature. Some features are very subtle, but hugely important to me, for example:

[-] Viewfinder socket not obstructing the lens mount (directed backward, not forward) - $5k
[-] LDS support - $2k
[x] recording 5k or more - $20k
etc...

And, had the Sony ticked my"must have" boxes my choice would have been most likely different and they would have had an order for two bodies by now. Goes to show how important the feature set is. And everone's boxes are different and have different weighting (price).
 
And this is why people should tick there own boxes when purchasing cameras. My ticks (needs) will never correspond with someones else's...

I'm a very happy camper... :)

Oh and the skin color/tone augment doesn't fly with me, I'm working in RAW. I discard all meta data shot on set when I go to final grade.
I simply start a fresh and change skin color / tones to what ever I want.... Easy as that.
Saying ARRI is better than RED is just a joke. I think a lot of you guys must not run your own post & grades.

Why use the colour settings you shot on the day as your final... Why shoot RAW if your not going to use the RAW files to there full potential.

Crazy stuff...

Someone give me a ARRI skin portrait shot, and Ill shoot a EPIC of some skin and I bet i can match it perfectly... And to make it even tougher for me, Ill shoot the camera at 3200k in 5600k.... Ill screw up all my settings and I can still get back to perfection.
RAW is RAW... PRO RES is colour baked...

Come on guys...
 
Agreed.

The problem (which is the big plus with REDs) is that instead of the brains trust of ARRI or Sony etc setting up the in camera looks, processing, imagery etc is that with RED it is left to the people in post to create. This is the make or break and 99.99% of every bad shot, bad skin tone or anything else not to par is usually a direct result of the post work. This is a large part of why I have an F3 alongside my Epic and R1MX is that when I client doesn't have the budget or knowledge and Im not available to assist I give them a baked in image. My little Samurai on the epic and F3 works a treat too when this is the case. Or I render out prores myself and handover files, if I can't be there for grading.
 
I may be the only guy owns Epic, F65, Sony F3 (and 5D Mark III) :)
I love them all for different reasons: I bought into Red One/Epic because it was first in 4K market and affordable. Later Sony F3 came out that is great in low light and that camera just works all the time. When I look at F65 images they are pristine, sharp and clean. I work mostly with Alexa as it is camera of choice in pro market that I work in. It has already established itself strong because of its dynamic range, great image and simplicity.
I had a quick shoot last week (interview) and I went with Epic because it was best bang for the buck and I did not have to carry O'Connor tripod for F65. It would not be best choice though if I did not own RED Rocket already to transcode for couple hours afterwards.
When I shoot pictures then I use Mark III as it takes definitely best stills.
Cameras are tools or toys. Use them accordingly and you will be happy. There is no one camera for all purposes.
 
Liana said:
This is similar to how amateur -and ignorant- photographers often brag that their cheapo plastic toy camera shoots 'straight to jpeg' and does not "burden" them with RAW.
Click to expand...

FYI

I know an AFP photographer who shoots Jpeg instead of RAW because lack of time to transmit and process them in RAW.

Pat
 
Liana said:
This is similar to how amateur -and ignorant- photographers often brag that their cheapo plastic toy camera shoots 'straight to jpeg' and does not "burden" them with RAW.
Click to expand...

Yea I've heard it too, and not just from photographers talking RAW; sports 'togs bragging they can get it right in camera the first time, musicians saying " You see, we don't need Pro Tools." They attempt to be cocky about it but if you look closely you can sometimes see the discomfort behind their bravado. There is fear there. Fear that they are falling behind. Fear that they will no longer be viewed as a master of the medium.

Whatever works for you. That's how I reply.
 
With stills it has been my experience, if you know the actual DR of your camera through testing, use a spot meter to light within that DR range, expose within the camera's ability and set your WB via X-Rite card . . . there is no benefit to shooting RAW. Saying that all photogs who shoot JPG's are amateurs is a misunderstanding of the benefits of using file formats use to their strength.

All my still photos are archived in JPG format - that format will be supported in 20 years . . . CR2 or IIQ not so much
 
and there are photographers that destroy their negatives after they are developed so they can never go back and change their minds validating their absolution on that's what they wanted and got the first time. :)

to each to their own!
 
F65 Weight: 13.5 Kilo (with RAW pack) - ARRI Weight: 12.6 Kilo (with RAW pack) - EPIC Weight: 4.2 Kilo (with RAW pack)

Saw a few pics of people using the F65, didn't realize how fricking HUGE that camera is.
 
Will Keir said:
F65 Weight: 13.5 Kilo (with RAW pack) - ARRI Weight: 12.6 Kilo (with RAW pack) - EPIC Weight: 4.2 Kilo (with RAW pack)

Saw a few pics of people using the F65, didn't realize how fricking HUGE that camera is.
Click to expand...

It is big... but not ridiculous... Panovision cameras leave it for dead !. I have seen one sitting on a tripod with basic gear attached. it's wider than you would imagine.
But once you production it up a bit, it certainly becomes a tripod stayer...
When the F35 came out I was really blown away by how big that was.. and how it become so obsolete so quickly. I wonder how many they actually sold?
Ive seen a few sitting in rental houses of late.... with dust on them. F23... even worse. the ARRI D21... ouch..
I asked the Sony guys at NAB if I could try it on my shoulder... they all looked at me funny, like it was a silly question.
None the less the F65 shoots great images. Lets not forget that.

EPIC owners are spoilt when it comes to size, speed and usability, thats for sure.

Pictures like these of two working (RAW) cameras side by side do make it hard to argue. (Thanks Ketch)

282549_1854335838719_1250491988_31596583_1034855_n.jpg
 
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