SONY F65 - ALEXA - EPIC - just tick the boxes

[Mark Toia]

For me, all these new cameras are fantastic. but when it comes to purchasing one or more... I just do the logical thing of ticking the boxes that suite my personal needs...
As simple as that.

Everyone has different requirements from a camera package or it's capabilities. With a lot of people liking brand names over practically and price... or there perception of image quality from one camera over other cameras. Post production workflows become a deciding factor as well. Were PRORES from the ARRI becomes a quick workflow over RAW work flows. (at the moment). So none of us should think that SONY is better than ARRI or ARRI better than RED... its just comes down to logical choices that suites your needs at the time.

This is not a post that says one camera is better than the other... Everyone has a different list of boxes to tick and these are mine when I'm looking at buying anything that shoots a moving image.
Try ticking your own boxes... I'm sure they will differ to everyone else's.

 

[peter roehsler]

Thank you, Mark!
Downloaded and saved for future discussions with friends and colleagues.
May i forward this chart?

best wishes!
peter

 

[Mark Toia]

Certainly... But tick your own boxes.
Everyone is different .

Thank you, Mark!
Downloaded and saved for future discussions with friends and colleagues.
May i forward this chart?

best wishes!
peter

 

[luigivaltulini]

Mark,
you are fantastic, as always accurate.
I will use 'your slides, tomorrow I have a course in Television with different cinematographers and technicians.
I appreciate what you do, MArk.

thanks
Luigi

 

[Petri Teittinen]

I still don't understand how the F65 can have a "8K cemos" (that's CMOS, right?) with only 20 million pixels.

 

[Yusuf Thakur]

Thanks Mark,

That does put things in Black/White/ and RED.

Will very useful as quick reference and ready reckoner.

Yusuf Thakur
VFX,Dubai.
www.vfxme.com

 

[Mark Toia]

I still don't understand how the F65 can have a "8K cemos" (that's CMOS, right?) with only 20 million pixels.

I'm not technical enough to argue the point... these are just numbers from there websites.

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

no box for included monitoring (viewfinder)? no box for included audio-options?
price tag of "body only" -> pretty useless without additional accessories…
I think the "ready to shoot" approach would be more appropriate here when comparing price tags.
(RED will still win I suppose - just to be fair when comparing numbers)

this may be a good beginners-guide but I think there are a lot more points to be considered…

 

[Philippe Van Horebeek]

Thanks for that contribution Mark. I'm in the middle of making a report (about camera choices) for some future drama series production for television where the post production workflow is indeed very important to take into account.
I try to take distance from all the biased arguments that you can often hear and try to look to the requirements and the needs.
Your list is a good (partial) summary, and I will certainly refer to it in future debate.

 

[Mark Toia]

no box for included monitoring (viewfinder)? no box for included audio-options?
price tag of "body only" -> pretty useless without additional accessories…
I think the "ready to shoot" approach would be more appropriate here when comparing price tags.
(RED will still win I suppose - just to be fair when comparing numbers)

this may be a good beginners-guide but I think there are a lot more points to be considered…

Just for the record, I have just finished shooting one of the biggest TVC's of my career on an EPIC setup exactly what you see in that picture...
Sorry mate. but it works very very well in a very basic configuration.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I still don't understand how the F65 can have a "8K cemos" (that's CMOS, right?) with only 20 million pixels.

Especially when only 17mp are used to make the image....

Graeme

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I still don't understand how the F65 can have a "8K cemos" (that's CMOS, right?) with only 20 million pixels.

It's a 8K x 2K pixel array. Technically, it is half-8K (only the horizontal pixels are 8K, the vertical pixels are still 4K equivalent). I am not aware of the final results, but should lead to clean 4K images. As for 8K, it is as much a 8K camera as Canon DSLRs are 1080p. I am not sure how accurate or relevant it is, but I have read a couple of reports about F65's debayer being real-time at 4K with no hardware acceleration, which could be a major plus from the post-production angle. Would need a fast disk subsystem though.

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

Just for the record, I have just finished shooting one of the biggest TVC's of my career on an EPIC setup exactly what you see in that picture...
Sorry mate. but it works very very well in a very basic configuration.

I never doubt it… I know you're doing great work and I also know one can archieve fantastic pictures even with the most stripped-down setup.

Nonetheless - what I'm seeing at the picture is an estimate of about 43.000 (without the lens and without knowing your power route - so maybe a little less, but not much)… It's just that I don't get why people start with the naked body and not with ready to shoot when they talk about the price - your picture was right about that, why not your price tag? Of course you have to add up costs to the other cameras as well (power options, media) - RED still wins here, that's not my point… I just think the only true comparison will be when you put it in a broader context - including post production (options & cost).

I won't complain other then that - it's a good basic overview…

 

[Mark Toia]

I never doubt it… I know you're doing great work and I also know one can archieve fantastic pictures even with the most stripped-down setup.

Nonetheless - what I'm seeing at the picture is an estimate of about 43.000 (without the lens and without knowing your power route - so maybe a little less, but not much)… It's just that I don't get why people start with the naked body and not with ready to shoot when they talk about the price - your picture was right about that, why not your price tag? Of course you have to add up costs to the other cameras as well (power options, media) - RED still wins here, that's not my point… I just think the only true comparison will be when you put it in a broader context - including post production (options & cost).

I won't complain other then that - it's a good basic overview…

Thats all it is.. just basic.
Just because I like using EPIC's, does not mean others have too...

I'll change the EPIC too 43k for you. but I did say body only didnt I... Ah... I leave it. an extra 5k still makes it way way less than the others.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

It's a 8K x 2K pixel array. Technically, it is half-8K (only the horizontal pixels are 8K, the vertical pixels are still 4K equivalent). I am not aware of the final results, but should lead to clean 4K images. As for 8K, it is as much a 8K camera as Canon DSLRs are 1080p. I am not sure how accurate or relevant it is, but I have read a couple of reports about F65's debayer being real-time at 4K with no hardware acceleration, which could be a major plus from the post-production angle. Would need a fast disk subsystem though.

It's neither an 8k x 2k array nor a 4k x 4k array, but both descriptions are about as correct as each other. They use a simple extraction to get 4k from the data, hence the speed - there's very little in the way of calculation they need, similarly to how Canon get their 1080p on the C300 without a demosaic.

Graeme

 

[Tom.Wong]

the box for dynamic range is a bit of a dicey subject too. it's a simple fact that f65 (and i've seen it) and alexa have more native dynamic range over the epic, and epic can achieve more dynamic range as more of a post effect, and may not apply to every type of shooting situation especially with a great deal of motion. I know a good amount of DP's who find the DR they can see right away to be the most convincing checkbox of them all. I think there should also be a box for signal to noise ratio, and possibly even "noise aesthetic" because noise is a subjective thing and is all about personal tolerance and how you feel about it. I know some people who find the Alexa very quiet on the noise front, I actually find it kind of noisy, but I don't think the noise looks bad. but a great chart nonetheless and it always shows that everybody has way different needs out of their camera system.

and Mark, I think you and an Epic were always meant to be together

 

[Mark Toia]

the box for dynamic range is a bit of a dicey subject too. it's a simple fact that f65 (and i've seen it) and alexa have more native dynamic range over the epic, and epic can achieve more dynamic range as more of a post effect, and may not apply to every type of shooting situation especially with a great deal of motion. I know a good amount of DP's who find the DR they can see right away to be the most convincing checkbox of them all. I think there should also be a box for signal to noise ratio, and possibly even "noise aesthetic" because noise is a subjective thing and is all about personal tolerance and how you feel about it. I know some people who find the Alexa very quiet on the noise front, I actually find it kind of noisy, but I don't think the noise looks bad. but a great chart nonetheless and it always shows that everybody has way different needs out of their camera system.

and Mark, I think you and an Epic were always meant to be together

I swear it was made for me...

Big heavy cameras are a thing of the past for me.... I struggled with the ARRI when I used it a couple of months ago, we had the RAW pack on it as well... Which became a joke.
I felt like i was hog tied. Such a huge great thing, I just couldn't move quickly without a tripod and two grips moving it around for me. Had the same experience with the loaded REDONE also... The EPIC has just spoilt me to death... I cannot go backwards now. Not unless SONY or ARRI bought out a camera as small and as affordable as the EPIC. But we all know thats not going to happen in the short term.

 

[Mick van Rossum NSC]

Agreed on most points, except dynamic range (HDRX is not trouble free, yet) and where is low light sensitivity ? In that respect Epic loses.... Then again, after shooting Alexa for a year, I can say I am very happy with my epic and my scarlet.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I dunno Mark... gorillas are F%$%ing strong. And they'll probably tear the little Epic modules apart and throw them at trees to get bananas.

The Alexa has less modules, plus a big red button. So for gorilla use, I think it's the winner. Give that to the silverback. Then film the fun with an Epic

Seriously though... I agree, except for dynamic range (Alexa), skin tones (not on the list but important to me - Alexa)... things that I hope Dragon will beat soon! Service and Support in South Africa is a tad tricky too - need some more local offices so we're not FedEx-ing things marked "BOMB EVF" across international borders

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Uli Plank]

DR (without HDRx) and low-light? Yes, Alexa. But skin tones? Not any more with RC3/RG3 !